Spain's $680 Million submarine can only dive, not resurface

[The Minsky Moment]

I agree, but that brings us back to our original question: are the current military assets significant and credible enough to deter our potential enemies? I still think so.

That is true for today.  Policy plans for tomorrow.

[Admiral Yi]

Zanza:

I've not read the last 4 pages, forgive me if it was covered.

What was/is the German attitude towards Bosnia/Sbrenica?  Rwanda?

[Zanza]

Zanza:

I've not read the last 4 pages, forgive me if it was covered.

What was/is the German attitude towards Bosnia/Sbrenica?  Rwanda?

Bosnia: As you know, back then, Germany was incapable of doing much about it. Both from a politics perspective as it was not yet ready to accept that it had a more active role after the end of the Cold War and from a military doctrine/equipment perspective as the military was still completely focused on being a conscript army to fight the Soviets. I think the change in mission profile that Berkut disputes did actually happen and politics are now more ready to use German military assets so I would expect our response nowadays to be more active and more robust. 

Rwanda: Terrible. But when talking about realistic policy, Germany will never have capabilities or political will to intervene in a civil war in central Africa by itself. I could imagine Germany contributing to a joint European mission. Not back in 1994, but now in 2013.

That said, I am also quite sure that the European Union of 2013 could not stop a similar genocide occuring somewhere else. The whole genocide took about 100 days.  Before our policy makers would even get active, the first 10 days or so would already have passed. Until they made a decision to intervene, it would take at least 10 days as well (maybe one or more go unilaterally like Hollande die in Mali) and then it would take a long, long time to transport enough forces and establish logistics in central Africa to make any intervention viable. Should we build military capabilities to react faster and with greater strength to conflicts in Africa? Hmm.

[Iormlund]

As an aside... how does Spain reconcile it's ownership of Ceuta and Melilla with it's claims on Gibraltar?

The Enclaves are not colonies.

Not to mention those cities have never actually been part of Morocco.

... Ilhas Selvagens (Savage islands).

Now you're just making stuff up!

[Barrister]

As an aside... how does Spain reconcile it's ownership of Ceuta and Melilla with it's claims on Gibraltar?

The Enclaves are not colonies.

Not to mention those cities have never actually been part of Morocco.

Not trying to beat you up over this, but what is the functional difference between an enclave and a colony?

[Duque de Bragança]

... Ilhas Selvagens (Savage islands).

Now you're just making stuff up!

Notice I said intermittent claims. Right now, it's quiet though the EEZ is still contested by Spain.

[Valmy]

As an aside... how does Spain reconcile it's ownership of Ceuta and Melilla with it's claims on Gibraltar?

The Enclaves are not colonies.

Not to mention those cities have never actually been part of Morocco.

Not trying to beat you up over this, but what is the functional difference between an enclave and a colony?

An enclave is considered part of the country, a colony is not.

[Iormlund]

As an aside... how does Spain reconcile it's ownership of Ceuta and Melilla with it's claims on Gibraltar?

The Enclaves are not colonies.

Not to mention those cities have never actually been part of Morocco.

Not trying to beat you up over this, but what is the functional difference between an enclave and a colony?

Enclave is a geographical definition. It just means a territory surrounded by another country/province/etc. Like West Berlin.

The difference between Gibraltar and Ceuta is that the former is a colony, the latter is not. It's just a part of Spain as Toledo or Salamanca are.


That being said, I don't give a crap about who owns Gibraltar. But it surely would be nice for the Brits to at least pretend they are doing something about the zillion money-laundering colonies they run.

[Barrister]

Enclave is a geographical definition. It just means a territory surrounded by another country/province/etc. Like West Berlin.

The difference between Gibraltar and Ceuta is that the former is a colony, the latter is not. It's just a part of Spain as Toledo or Salamanca are.

Sounds like a tautology to me.  'Ceuta is not a colony because we call it something else'.

That being said, I don't give a crap about who owns Gibraltar. But it surely would be nice for the Brits to at least pretend they are doing something about the zillion money-laundering colonies they run.

Fair enough!  And they do seem to have more than their share, don't they.

[The Larch]

Well, Spain (and Germany) are a part of NATO and are committed to both mutual defence, and on occasion, have entered into military action as part of the alliance in other parts of the world.  Afghanistan is a NATO operation, remember?

Mutual defense doesn't mean so much when neither is threatened by anyone.

Except Spain borders a fairly unstable region of the world. After what's happened in Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia and Syria, who is to say Islamists won't take control of Morocco in the next 20 or 30 years?
The ability to control thousands of miles of coastline might not be important for Germany, but it is for Spain.

Not to mention having territories away from the main land mass. The Navy will always be the main part of the Spanish military as long as Spain has the Canaries, Ceuta and Melilla.

As an aside... how does Spain reconcile it's ownership of Ceuta and Melilla with it's claims on Gibraltar?

The Spanish claim on Gibraltar is a museum piece, no sane government would ever press it with a straight face. That's not to say that  Spanish governments are happy with Gibraltar's status, but they're not going to actually do anything about it.

In short, the status quo won't change either for Gibraltar or Ceuta & Melilla.

[Ed Anger]

IMO, it's wrong to ally with another state and not build a military capable of helping defend that ally. If Germany and Poland got invaded by Russia, I expect the US Army to get there and start wrecking things. If Mexico invades the US, I expect German tanks in Texas.

No American tanks left in Europe. Europe is a large airfield, hospital and listening post.

Which is the way I like it. Europe is the past.

[The Larch]

Sounds like a tautology to me.  'Ceuta is not a colony because we call it something else'.

We don't just "call it something else", both C&M are fully integrated into Spanish territory like any other part of the country, while Gibraltar keeps its wishy washy status as an Overseas Territory and is still in the UN's list of Non Self-Governing Territories.

[Iormlund]

Sounds like a tautology to me.  'Ceuta is not a colony because we call it something else'.

Ceuta is to Spain as BC is to Canada or Kent to the UK. It's functionally the same as any other province, except for its small size and close proximity to Morocco.

[Viking]

The Spanish claim on Gibraltar is a museum piece, no sane government would ever press it with a straight face. That's not to say that  Spanish governments are happy with Gibraltar's status, but they're not going to actually do anything about it.

In short, the status quo won't change either for Gibraltar or Ceuta & Melilla.

Spain has no claim on Gibraltar, they ceded it to Britain as part of the Treaty of Utrecht.

[The Larch]

The Spanish claim on Gibraltar is a museum piece, no sane government would ever press it with a straight face. That's not to say that  Spanish governments are happy with Gibraltar's status, but they're not going to actually do anything about it.

In short, the status quo won't change either for Gibraltar or Ceuta & Melilla.

Spain has no claim on Gibraltar, they ceded it to Britain as part of the Treaty of Utrecht.

The wording is trickier than that, though, and was basically established in a way that'd prevent it from being anything else than British or Spanish. That includes eventual independence. Spain's posture is that status quo is ok, but full independence is completely out of the question.