Spain's $680 Million submarine can only dive, not resurface

[Barrister]

Meanwhile Canada should actively work on building up its forces.

Agreed.

[The Brain]

Generally speaking Western militaries are too weak. Only America is halfway decent, but that way lies fatness.

[Zanza]

Things can change fast in geopolitics, but armies take decades to build.  The chance fo an armed confrontation with Russia or China is remote now, but you never know.

If it takes us decades to build an army, it will take them decades to build one too. Enough to time to react accordingly.

Russia is a realistic possible threat. They have nukes, but we don't intend to counter that. As far as conventional arms are concerned, the European Union vastly outproduces Russia in everything and has three times the population. That leaves political will to actually commit military might and that's certainly not there right now. So even if we had a powerful military, we would not commit it anyway.

China is on the other side of the world. No matter what they do, we will never be in an armed confrontation with them. Germany would certainly not do anything but sending strongly worded protest notes if China invaded Taiwan or so.

[The Brain]

I seem to remember a period when Germany only had 100,000 soldiers. THAT WORKED OUT GREAT

[Barrister]

Things can change fast in geopolitics, but armies take decades to build.  The chance fo an armed confrontation with Russia or China is remote now, but you never know.

If it takes us decades to build an army, it will take them decades to build one too. Enough to time to react accordingly.

Russia is a realistic possible threat. They have nukes, but we don't intend to counter that. As far as conventional arms are concerned, the European Union vastly outproduces Russia in everything and has three times the population. That leaves political will to actually commit military might and that's certainly not there right now. So even if we had a powerful military, we would not commit it anyway.

China is on the other side of the world. No matter what they do, we will never be in an armed confrontation with them. Germany would certainly not do anything but sending strongly worded protest notes if China invaded Taiwan or so.

But if Germany were to simple abolish it's military, as Alfred was suggesting?

Then all you need is for the next Russian President to decide to start marching troops on Berlin...

[Zanza]

Alfred said "vast majority" of our military. Compared to the Cold War, when the West German military had about 500k soldiers, we are now down to 185k soldiers, so that's a cut of 63% (and doesn't even consider the East German soldiers of the Cold War). I could see it drop further without risking Russian soldiers marching through Berlin anytime soon and without us losing core military competencies to be able to build up a bigger military if needed.

Oh, and the next Russian president won't be a lunatic, so even if we had no military, he would not just go and try to conquer us. This is the real world, not Civilization.

[alfred russel]

Also, Belarus and Poland are between Russia and Germany.

[Barrister]

Alfred said "vast majority" of our military. Compared to the Cold War, when the West German military had about 500k soldiers, we are now down to 185k soldiers, so that's a cut of 63% (and doesn't even consider the East German soldiers of the Cold War). I could see it drop further without risking Russian soldiers marching through Berlin anytime soon and without us losing core military competencies to be able to build up a bigger military if needed.

Oh, and the next Russian president won't be a lunatic, so even if we had no military, he would not just go and try to conquer us. This is the real world, not Civilization.

I wish I could be confident of that.

[crazy canuck]

Peace in our Time!





yeah, that worked out well didnt it?

[sbr]

The submarine is the only viable naval weapon left. All surface ships are way too easy to hit and sink.

It's not like submarines are any more difficult.  Hell, they don't even need to be hit to sink.

[Ed Anger]

So it starts with a red peg in the middle hole.

[Iormlund]

Well, Spain (and Germany) are a part of NATO and are committed to both mutual defence, and on occasion, have entered into military action as part of the alliance in other parts of the world.  Afghanistan is a NATO operation, remember?

Mutual defense doesn't mean so much when neither is threatened by anyone.

Except Spain borders a fairly unstable region of the world. After what's happened in Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia and Syria, who is to say Islamists won't take control of Morocco in the next 20 or 30 years?
The ability to control thousands of miles of coastline might not be important for Germany, but it is for Spain.

[Tamas]

Things can change fast in geopolitics, but armies take decades to build.  The chance fo an armed confrontation with Russia or China is remote now, but you never know.

If it takes us decades to build an army, it will take them decades to build one too. Enough to time to react accordingly.

Russia is a realistic possible threat. They have nukes, but we don't intend to counter that. As far as conventional arms are concerned, the European Union vastly outproduces Russia in everything and has three times the population. That leaves political will to actually commit military might and that's certainly not there right now. So even if we had a powerful military, we would not commit it anyway.

China is on the other side of the world. No matter what they do, we will never be in an armed confrontation with them. Germany would certainly not do anything but sending strongly worded protest notes if China invaded Taiwan or so.

For Hungary, being a weakling 100% dependent on a foreign power to protect us is normal.

But how can you Germans live with that assessment? What you described is that the only reason Russia isn't bullying you to oblivion is that the USA wouldn't let them.

[The Larch]

Well, Spain (and Germany) are a part of NATO and are committed to both mutual defence, and on occasion, have entered into military action as part of the alliance in other parts of the world.  Afghanistan is a NATO operation, remember?

Mutual defense doesn't mean so much when neither is threatened by anyone.

Except Spain borders a fairly unstable region of the world. After what's happened in Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia and Syria, who is to say Islamists won't take control of Morocco in the next 20 or 30 years?
The ability to control thousands of miles of coastline might not be important for Germany, but it is for Spain.

Not to mention having territories away from the main land mass. The Navy will always be the main part of the Spanish military as long as Spain has the Canaries, Ceuta and Melilla.

[garbon]

Well, Spain (and Germany) are a part of NATO and are committed to both mutual defence, and on occasion, have entered into military action as part of the alliance in other parts of the world.  Afghanistan is a NATO operation, remember?

Mutual defense doesn't mean so much when neither is threatened by anyone.

Except Spain borders a fairly unstable region of the world. After what's happened in Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia and Syria, who is to say Islamists won't take control of Morocco in the next 20 or 30 years?
The ability to control thousands of miles of coastline might not be important for Germany, but it is for Spain.

Not to mention having territories away from the main land mass. The Navy will always be the main part of the Spanish military as long as Spain has the Canaries, Ceuta and Melilla.

It'll just be at the bottom of the ocean.