Pope Francis says atheists can be good

[garbon]

It'd take a pretty fucking nice Chianti to make a Catholic good.

Better put ice in it.

[The Brain]

Word to your mother.

[grumbler]

To add to this point (and here is something many Christians do not know, apparently) ... the religion we know of today as "Judaism" probably bears only a slight resemblence to the Judaism of the age of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Large parts of the OT are devoted to a priestly religion centred on a single Temple, which now no longer exists.

The Judaism of today is much more based on the Talmud, which contains the "oral traditions" considered of equal value to the written laws contained in the OT - and which developed after the destruction of the Temple. "Judaism" in the modern sense is as much an offshoot of "Judaism" of OT times as Christianity or Islam! Of course it is closer to the original concept than they, but it is still a variant.

The analogy I draw for my students is that of "football."  "Foot ball" originated as the ball game for the foot soldiers (the mounted soldiers played "horse ball," which eventually became polo), and was apparently much more akin to rugby football (or maybe even Aussie Rules Football) than to anything else called "football" today.  In the mid-19th Century, "foot ball" evolved into Rugby Football, Association Football, and American Football - each of which later spun off other variations.  Each of these branches calles itself "football" and has fans who think that their game is the merely-cleaned-up pure game (confused or stupid association football fans often even mistakenly think that rugby and american football can't be football, because they allow the use of the hands).

In fact, of course, none of the three main branches of football are "foot ball" as it was known in history, and none can claim to be the "pure version" of the sport.  It's best not to make that point in front of certain kinds of fans, though - the ones for whom their version of the  sport is, effectively, a religion.

[Malthus]

To add to this point (and here is something many Christians do not know, apparently) ... the religion we know of today as "Judaism" probably bears only a slight resemblence to the Judaism of the age of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Large parts of the OT are devoted to a priestly religion centred on a single Temple, which now no longer exists.

The Judaism of today is much more based on the Talmud, which contains the "oral traditions" considered of equal value to the written laws contained in the OT - and which developed after the destruction of the Temple. "Judaism" in the modern sense is as much an offshoot of "Judaism" of OT times as Christianity or Islam! Of course it is closer to the original concept than they, but it is still a variant.

The analogy I draw for my students is that of "football."  "Foot ball" originated as the ball game for the foot soldiers (the mounted soldiers played "horse ball," which eventually became polo), and was apparently much more akin to rugby football (or maybe even Aussie Rules Football) than to anything else called "football" today.  In the mid-19th Century, "foot ball" evolved into Rugby Football, Association Football, and American Football - each of which later spun off other variations.  Each of these branches calles itself "football" and has fans who think that their game is the merely-cleaned-up pure game (confused or stupid association football fans often even mistakenly think that rugby and american football can't be football, because they allow the use of the hands).

In fact, of course, none of the three main branches of football are "foot ball" as it was known in history, and none can claim to be the "pure version" of the sport.  It's best not to make that point in front of certain kinds of fans, though - the ones for whom their version of the  sport is, effectively, a religion.

I love it. I am so stealing that. 

The odd part (in the religion case) is that practitioners of certain fundamentalist forms of Christianity are, as you know, OT Biblical literalists - when the vast majority of Jews, aside from some odd sects like the Karaites, of course hold to the OT as interpreted through the Talmud, which fundamentally changes the meaning of it (example: the OT proscribes death for numerous offences such as adultery; the Talmud adds so many requirements for imposing that penalty - such as having multiple witnesses warning the adulterers in set warning language during the act - for every death penalty offence is, practically speaking, impossible to ever impose). 

In short, there are some Christians who attempt to be more "original Jew" than the Jews.

[Viking]

They were heritical offshoots when they first arose - it was by no means clear that they were "seperate religions" for some time. Of course, over time they became quite seperate.

Well no.

Christianity doesn't consider itself an off-shoot, but rather a replacement for Judaism.
Islam doesn't consider itself an off-shoot, but rather the original religion while Judaism and Christianity are corruptions either by corrupt men or the devil.

[fhdz]

The issue isn't how Christians, Muslims, etc see *themselves* - because they've constructed a narrative for themselves which obviously doesn't cast them as heretics - the issue is what actually happened.

[Valmy]

They were heritical offshoots when they first arose - it was by no means clear that they were "seperate religions" for some time. Of course, over time they became quite seperate.

Well no.

Christianity doesn't consider itself an off-shoot, but rather a replacement for Judaism.
Islam doesn't consider itself an off-shoot, but rather the original religion while Judaism and Christianity are corruptions either by corrupt men or the devil.

Christianity did originally consider itself Jewish though.  It only became the new better Judaism once it fell out with the Jews.

[garbon]

The issue isn't how Christians, Muslims, etc see *themselves* - because they've constructed a narrative for themselves which obviously doesn't cast them as heretics - the issue is what actually happened.

I haven't read enough vis-a-vis reactions to the formulation of Islam. Was Mohammed every viewed as a heretic of Judaism (and/or Christianity)?

Certainly what Valm said regarding Christianity is true but I don't know if that holds true for Islam.

[Viking]

The issue isn't how Christians, Muslims, etc see *themselves* - because they've constructed a narrative for themselves which obviously doesn't cast them as heretics - the issue is what actually happened.

I haven't read enough vis-a-vis reactions to the formulation of Islam. Was Mohammed every viewed as a heretic of Judaism (and/or Christianity)?

Certainly what Valm said regarding Christianity is true but I don't know if that holds true for Islam.

According to the Hadith Mohammed went to the local jews and told them that he was their final prophet, they laughed at him so he stopped praying towards Jerusalem (the first qibla) and started praying towards Mecca (the second qibla). Then he went on a killing spree.

[The Minsky Moment]

second-rate Iron Age kingdom

Nothing to be ashamed about there.  Plenty of very impressive civilizations never even made it out of the Bronze Age.

[The Minsky Moment]

To add to this point (and here is something many Christians do not know, apparently) ... the religion we know of today as "Judaism" probably bears only a slight resemblence to the Judaism of the age of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Large parts of the OT are devoted to a priestly religion centred on a single Temple, which now no longer exists.

The Jerusalem-centric faith, with its monotheistic tinge, was itself in innovation, post-Assyrian conquest.  The Israel and Judah of the Davidic and Omride periods probably looked very much like their Canaanite and Levantine neighbors in terms of religious practice. 

[The Minsky Moment]

What is the news here, Marty? Even Dante's Inferno says that those people who not sinned but were not Christian got into the terrace of whatever of Hell and not Hell itself.

So either Heaven, or Hell, but with a terrace.
Tough real estate choice.

[Syt]

What is the news here, Marty? Even Dante's Inferno says that those people who not sinned but were not Christian got into the terrace of whatever of Hell and not Hell itself.

So either Heaven, or Hell, but with a terrace.
Tough real estate choice.

I hear the terrace view can't compete with the one from Heaven.

[Malthus]

They were heritical offshoots when they first arose - it was by no means clear that they were "seperate religions" for some time. Of course, over time they became quite seperate.

Well no.

Christianity doesn't consider itself an off-shoot, but rather a replacement for Judaism.
Islam doesn't consider itself an off-shoot, but rather the original religion while Judaism and Christianity are corruptions either by corrupt men or the devil.

You are missing the point. Obviously, both Christianity and Islam consider themselves the only valid religion. Historically, though, both were offshoots of Judaism - indeed, early Christians *were* Jews, and thought of themselves as such; it was only after some controversy that they ditched the markers of Jewish ritual.

For Islam, the latest (somewhat controversial) view is that early Muslims essentially considered themselves (and were considered) a variant of Judaism - only with the gloss that they themselves believed that the Jews got it wrong. In fact, Islam remains much more similar to Judaism than either are to Christianity - note for example that originally, Muslims prayed facing Jerusalem, a city Mohammed only visited (it is said) in a vision.

[Malthus]

To add to this point (and here is something many Christians do not know, apparently) ... the religion we know of today as "Judaism" probably bears only a slight resemblence to the Judaism of the age of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Large parts of the OT are devoted to a priestly religion centred on a single Temple, which now no longer exists.

The Jerusalem-centric faith, with its monotheistic tinge, was itself in innovation, post-Assyrian conquest.  The Israel and Judah of the Davidic and Omride periods probably looked very much like their Canaanite and Levantine neighbors in terms of religious practice.

Yup, I reference this in later posts. "Judaism" has gone through many variants over the millenia, although the traces of the earlier varieties are somewhat obscured. It is pretty clear, though, that monotheism was not a necessary part of the package in the earlier variants.