Pope Francis says atheists can be good

[Malthus]

You really have to consider Rabbinical Judaism and Temple Judaism as different religions. They have very little to do with each other.

Pretty well.

"Judaism" has gone through several phases, from what can be determined - it is difficult to make out the outlines of the earlier phases, because the Temple/Priestly Jews redacted the only written work we have to shoehorn the religion as they understood it back into the earlier references.

[Valmy]

You really have to consider Rabbinical Judaism and Temple Judaism as different religions. They have very little to do with each other.

Pretty well.

"Judaism" has gone through several phases, from what can be determined - it is difficult to make out the outlines of the earlier phases, because the Temple/Priestly Jews redacted the only written work we have to shoehorn the religion as they understood it back into the earlier references.

It is sort of humorous how many clues they left in the Torah by accident.  Like when Elohim speaks to the other Gods for a moment...

The Priests needed better editors.

[Malthus]

You really have to consider Rabbinical Judaism and Temple Judaism as different religions. They have very little to do with each other.

Pretty well.

"Judaism" has gone through several phases, from what can be determined - it is difficult to make out the outlines of the earlier phases, because the Temple/Priestly Jews redacted the only written work we have to shoehorn the religion as they understood it back into the earlier references.

It is sort of humorous how many clues they left in the Torah by accident.  Like when Elohim speaks to the other Gods for a moment...

The Priests needed better editors.

Or for that matter having two completely different (and incompatible) origin myths in Genesis, one right after the other. Or the bizzare reference to demi-gods. 

[garbon]

On the other hand, given that both Christianity and Islam are, essentially, heritical offshoots of Judaism, it is sometimes amazing to me the influence that this god of a second-rate Iron Age kingdom, quite unremarkable in its own day (and comprehensively flattened by the Romans, who trashed their temple), has had. It is like looking three thousand years into the future and finding out that half of the entire world considers New Jersey the holy land, and fight over access to Newark. 

Only if one is taking the view that they are all worshiping the same immutable God. I think that's a stretch given the change in attitudes/opinions/perceptions/conceptualizations about god over that 3000 year period.

Nope. It is simple fact. No matter what Christians and Muslims think of their version of god, they both acknowledge that their religions derived, historically, from Judaism - as do historians. Of course, they each believe that they received subsequent revelations that supercede Judaism, but it isn't like Muslims and Christians think (or historians think) that these religions did not derive from the Jewish notions of religion. 

I guess my point stems from the fact that I don't think it is particularly odd that a certain vague set of traditions could carry through millenia in different forms*. That isn't denying the fact that Judaism was the historical base from which those other two religions sprang - but that I think it would be an oversimplification to call them heretical offshots (at this point in time) as well as not really comparable to your NJ example as I don't think there is anyone who reveres NJ right now - not even people from NJ.

*I guess to me not anymore so for the various Greek traditions/thoughts that have carried through the West to today.

And that's just me having a different opinion from you - not arguing.

[Valmy]

I guess my point stems from the fact that I don't think it is particularly odd that a certain vague set of traditions could carry through millenia in different forms*.

That is not what is odd.  The odd part is that the vague set of traditions were derived from this particular insignificant Iron Age Kingdom. 

[Valmy]

And that's just me having a different opinion from you - not arguing.

I think you are just taking his obvious lighthearted jokes (like Islam and Christianity being heretical offshoots) way too seriously.

[Malthus]

On the other hand, given that both Christianity and Islam are, essentially, heritical offshoots of Judaism, it is sometimes amazing to me the influence that this god of a second-rate Iron Age kingdom, quite unremarkable in its own day (and comprehensively flattened by the Romans, who trashed their temple), has had. It is like looking three thousand years into the future and finding out that half of the entire world considers New Jersey the holy land, and fight over access to Newark. 

Only if one is taking the view that they are all worshiping the same immutable God. I think that's a stretch given the change in attitudes/opinions/perceptions/conceptualizations about god over that 3000 year period.

Nope. It is simple fact. No matter what Christians and Muslims think of their version of god, they both acknowledge that their religions derived, historically, from Judaism - as do historians. Of course, they each believe that they received subsequent revelations that supercede Judaism, but it isn't like Muslims and Christians think (or historians think) that these religions did not derive from the Jewish notions of religion. 

I guess my point stems from the fact that I don't think it is particularly odd that a certain vague set of traditions could carry through millenia in different forms*. That isn't denying the fact that Judaism was the historical base from which those other two religions sprang - but that I think it would be an oversimplification to call them heretical offshots (at this point in time) as well as not really comparable to your NJ example as I don't think there is anyone who reveres NJ right now - not even people from NJ.

*I guess to me not anymore so for the various Greek traditions/thoughts that have carried through the West to today.

And that's just me having a different opinion from you - not arguing.

They were heritical offshoots when they first arose - it was by no means clear that they were "seperate religions" for some time. Of course, over time they became quite seperate.

[garbon]

I guess my point stems from the fact that I don't think it is particularly odd that a certain vague set of traditions could carry through millenia in different forms*.

That is not what is odd.  The odd part is that the vague set of traditions were derived from this particular insignificant Iron Age Kingdom. 

A lot of traditions that have come down to us had their origins in humble, insignificant places.

[Malthus]

I guess my point stems from the fact that I don't think it is particularly odd that a certain vague set of traditions could carry through millenia in different forms*.

That is not what is odd.  The odd part is that the vague set of traditions were derived from this particular insignificant Iron Age Kingdom.

Yup.

[Malthus]

I guess my point stems from the fact that I don't think it is particularly odd that a certain vague set of traditions could carry through millenia in different forms*.

That is not what is odd.  The odd part is that the vague set of traditions were derived from this particular insignificant Iron Age Kingdom. 

A lot of traditions that have come down to us had their origins in humble, insignificant places.

The point is how widespread the influence of this single humble place has been. It's remarkable, at least to me.

[garbon]

They were heritical offshoots when they first arose - it was by no means clear that they were "seperate religions" for some time. Of course, over time they became quite seperate.

Not to be grumbler-like but you said "they are" and that's what I was looking at.

[Malthus]

... as well as not really comparable to your NJ example as I don't think there is anyone who reveres NJ right now - not even people from NJ.

Why do you hate DGuller so? 

[Valmy]

A lot of traditions that have come down to us had their origins in humble, insignificant places.

Traditions as big as the world's two biggest religions though?  That is what makes it funny.

In any case we were just having fun I would think our tone would have made it obvious.

[Martinus]

Only if one is taking the view that they are all worshiping the same immutable God. I think that's a stretch given the change in attitudes/opinions/perceptions/conceptualizations about god over that 3000 year period.

I do not think this is required or relevent at all to what he is saying.  Both Christians and Muslims claim to be worshipping the same god and that is his point.  But you could just easily say different sorts of Jews are not worshipping the same god because their interpretations are so different so therefore they are not the same religion...but that would be silly yes?

I don't think I agree. Both Christians and Muslims recognize that their God is the God of Abraham, for example. This puts them squarely into "worshipping the same God as Jews".

[The Brain]

It'd take a pretty fucking nice Chianti to make a Catholic good.