2016 elections - because it's never too early

[Valmy]

Their business what they defend.  We're talking about what American politicians understand to be Israeli security.

So if the security of Jewish colonists in the West Bank is threatened, that would be negotiable?  Since American politicians supposedly understand Israeli security to hew to the pre-1967 borders exclusively?

Well to be fair the Palestinians have fired shitloads of rockets into the pre-1967 borders and we have not really done much about it. So whatever 'negotiable' means I have no idea.

[Valmy]

It doesn't matter - it's just odd that one country's politician not only considers security of another country non-negotiable - but considers anyone who thinks differently to be unfit for an elected office. It smacks of treason.

If it makes you feel better we do not consider our NATO allies security negotiable either. Just nobody gets all pissy when we declare we support Poland and Latvia. Is that treason as well?

[Capetan Mihali]

The only reason we pay is a bribe that came out of that Camp David Accord thing right? I know we also give/gave a shit load to Egypt for no particular reason as well.

So why continue to bribe them?  We pay Egypt 1/3 of what we pay Israel, and that's after Egypt achieved a surprise military victory over them.  Otherwise we'd be talking about the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan, *and* the Sinai.

[Capetan Mihali]

It doesn't matter - it's just odd that one country's politician not only considers security of another country non-negotiable - but considers anyone who thinks differently to be unfit for an elected office. It smacks of treason.

If it makes you feel better we do not consider our NATO allies security negotiable either. Just nobody gets all pissy when we declare we support Poland and Latvia. Is that treason as well?

Has Israel pledged itself to *our* defense in anything like a NATO fashion?

[Capetan Mihali]

Their business what they defend.  We're talking about what American politicians understand to be Israeli security.

So if the security of Jewish colonists in the West Bank is threatened, that would be negotiable?  Since American politicians supposedly understand Israeli security to hew to the pre-1967 borders exclusively?

Well to be fair the Palestinians have fired shitloads of rockets into the pre-1967 borders and we have not really done much about it. So whatever 'negotiable' means I have no idea.

And the Israelis have dropped shitloads of bombs onto the post-1967 borders and we have done less than nothing about it.  I don't know what "negotiable" means either, it's your candidate who said it.

[Valmy]

Has Israel pledged itself to *our* defense in anything like a NATO fashion?

Nope. Israel is a pretty useless ally. But let's be real: those dudes are in NATO to be under our nice umbrella. When China nukes us I don't think the Euros are going to ride to our defense.

[Valmy]

And the Israelis have dropped shitloads of bombs onto the post-1967 borders and we have done less than nothing about it

I don't know what "negotiable" means either, it's your candidate who said it.

So? This is international politics not Kindergarten. Sorry stuff isn't fair.. Does supporting a candidate give me super mind reading powers?

This issue is not going to change no matter who gets elected so why should it influence who I vote for?

[Malthus]

Where is she right?  It's not an assertion of fact, it's a message of relentless support for Israel whatever the circumstances.  Israel's "security" is certainly negotiable as far I'm concerned; the use, for instance, of American troops or American taxpayer money to defend the "security" of newly-built West Bank settlements should be very much negotiable.

As a Canadian, I'd say US security is "non negotiable". Hell, I'd say that for a bunch of countries, typically other first world ones. If French security was threatened, or that of the UK, I'd expect Canada to step up. 

As far as I know, US troops have never, even once, defended an Israeli settlement. I doubt that Hillary is offering any, or that Israel is asking for any. 

Yes, the US sends Israel cash, as it does to a bunch of other ME countries (notably, Egypt). It probably ought to stop doing that. If it did, it would not mean it thought security in the ME was "negotiable".

[Malthus]

The only reason we pay is a bribe that came out of that Camp David Accord thing right? I know we also give/gave a shit load to Egypt for no particular reason as well.

So why continue to bribe them?  We pay Egypt 1/3 of what we pay Israel, and that's after Egypt achieved a surprise military victory over them.  Otherwise we'd be talking about the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan, *and* the Sinai.

What kind of odd counterfactual world do you live in? Israel defeated Egypt in '73 and HANDED the Sinai pack to them as part of the Camp David peace agreement.

[Martinus]

It doesn't matter - it's just odd that one country's politician not only considers security of another country non-negotiable - but considers anyone who thinks differently to be unfit for an elected office. It smacks of treason.

If it makes you feel better we do not consider our NATO allies security negotiable either. Just nobody gets all pissy when we declare we support Poland and Latvia. Is that treason as well?

If Poland started, say, firing off rockets into Russia, I would expect the US government not to support us at all cost if Russia strikes back.

[Valmy]

So why continue to bribe them?  We pay Egypt 1/3 of what we pay Israel, and that's after Egypt achieved a surprise military victory over them.

Wait...Egypt won the war?

Otherwise we'd be talking about the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan, *and* the Sinai.

Gosh I thought that was a negotiation.

[Capetan Mihali]

As discussed above, we're in an alliance together.  Israel does not have the duties of an ally towards the US or Canada, AFAIK.

Still, I'm genuinely glad many posters here agree that the US should cut all military aid to Israel.  That's been a controversial position in the past, but I think people are seeing how intractable the Israeli government has become and no longer see any hope for a positive outcome from "constructive engagement" with Israel.

[Valmy]

If Poland started, say, firing off rockets into Russia, I would expect the US government not to support us at all cost if Russia strikes back.

Are you suggesting that if Israel launched an invasion of Jordan, or something, the US would support them at all costs?

[Valmy]

As discussed above, we're in an alliance together.  Israel does not have the duties of an ally towards the US or Canada, AFAIK.

Still, I'm genuinely glad many posters here agree that the US should cut all military aid to Israel.  That's been a controversial position in the past, but I think people are seeing how intractable the Israeli government has become and no longer see any hope for a positive outcome from "constructive engagement" with Israel.

I don't think there can be "constructive engagement" with either side. But I have had that opinion since I was a teenager.

But yeah supposedly Israel is an "ally" but I do not know what the terms of that alliance are as far as their obligations.

[Martinus]

If Poland started, say, firing off rockets into Russia, I would expect the US government not to support us at all cost if Russia strikes back.

Are you suggesting that if Israel launched an invasion of Jordan, or something, the US would support them at all costs?

Ok let's say Poland illegally invaded and occupied the Kaliningrad district.