Languishing Yet Again (VQ game)

[ulmont]

I'm ready; Habakku can start.  I will be on the road today, so may be a bit delayed in responding.

[Habbaku]

Ottomans offer peace to the Spanish in exchange for a card draw.

[Berkut]

Spain accepts the offer.

Spain offers an alliance to the French.

[Viking]

Ottomans offer peace to the Spanish in exchange for a card draw.

?

[Habbaku]

Thou art paranoid.

[Berkut]

Ottomans offer peace to the Spanish in exchange for a card draw.

?

Don't worry viking, I would never use you lying to me and betraying me as a pretext to make peace with the nation that should be our common enemy and coordinate with them to crush you just on general principles.

I just don't play that way.

[garbon]

Don't worry viking, I would never use you lying to me and betraying me as a pretext to make peace with the nation that should be our common enemy and coordinate with them to crush you just on general principles.

I just don't play that way.

Of course isn't that one of the complaints about how human players often "ruin" any game that tries to simulate historical diplomacy? Unlike nations over the course of years/decades, a human player is much more unforgiving of any stabs in the back (or failure to act as agreed upon) and likely to carry that throughout any future games played (as you so indicated earlier).

[Berkut]

Don't worry viking, I would never use you lying to me and betraying me as a pretext to make peace with the nation that should be our common enemy and coordinate with them to crush you just on general principles.

I just don't play that way.

Of course isn't that one of the complaints about how human players often "ruin" any game that tries to simulate historical diplomacy? Unlike nations over the course of years/decades, a human player is much more unforgiving of any stabs in the back (or failure to act as agreed upon) and likely to carry that throughout any future games played (as you so indicated earlier).

That goes without saying about any game though.

Even non-diplo games, right? I mean, if we play a game, I am going to remember how you played in the last game, and that will inform how I play the next game.

When it comes to games that involve diplomacy that requires trust, it would be stupid for me to forget that viking cannot be trusted under any circumstances..

[Viking]

When it comes to games that involve diplomacy that requires trust, it would be stupid for me to forget that viking cannot be trusted under any circumstances..

Yes, and this will be demonstrated in the upcoming diplo phase where NOBODY will make any deals with me that depend on my trustworthiness to deliver some later boon.

[garbon]

When it comes to games that involve diplomacy that requires trust, it would be stupid for me to forget that viking cannot be trusted under any circumstances..

But is that a fair conclusion? One broken promise means he can never be trusted?

Surely, as you say with other games, you take into account how an opponent might play but that needn't lead to absolutes unless your opponent is really a one note player.

[ulmont]

Max is up, correct?

[Maximus]

England offers 2 mercs to the HRE

[Berkut]

When it comes to games that involve diplomacy that requires trust, it would be stupid for me to forget that viking cannot be trusted under any circumstances..

Yes, and this will be demonstrated in the upcoming diplo phase where NOBODY will make any deals with me that depend on my trustworthiness to deliver some later boon.

Meh, I don't control anyone else, just myself. If other people trust you, good for them, and you. Certainly I don't refuse to deal with people who break their agreements with others - I don't even know enough about others agreements to evaluate whether the breaking was for a good reason or not. I know everything there is to know about *our* agreement though, and if you were willing to lie to me about that, then there is no reason to believe that you will ever deal in good faith again.

My rules are simple. I don't make deals with people who break them with me without some very compelling reason. Other people can, and are welcome to, apply their own rules.

[Berkut]

When it comes to games that involve diplomacy that requires trust, it would be stupid for me to forget that viking cannot be trusted under any circumstances..

But is that a fair conclusion? One broken promise means he can never be trusted?

It is both a conclusion and a way of doing business. How many times would you let someone lie to you before you decide not to trust them anymore?

Surely, as you say with other games, you take into account how an opponent might play but that needn't lead to absolutes unless your opponent is really a one note player.

Of course. But when it comes to diplomacy that involves making agreements with each other, there really is a matter of it being pointless if you don't know if the other person is simply going to refuse to honor what they said they would do.

Viking didn't break any rules of the game. But he made it clear that his word is worthless, and he has no problem taking something from someone and then simply refusing to give what was offered in return. How can I make any deal with him in the future if I know that in reality he won't actually come through if he decides he simply doesn't want to anymore? And then is likely in a fit of pique to just make plays that actively harm him in order to stick it to me?

There is only one rational way to handle another play who plays that irrationally.

[ulmont]

French diplomacy:

France accepts the Spanish alliance offer.

France offers to the HRE (full package deal):
1) Henry III Anjou marries Anna of Austria;
2) Charles IX marries Elizabeth of Austria;
3) Peace between HRE and France;
4) Alliance between HRE and France;
5) HRE gives 4 mercs to France; and
6) France returns Frankfurt and Trier to the HRE (displace 1+2 to Metz, for a total of 2+2 in Metz, and bounce 1+0 to Paris).

France offers to the Protestants (package deal by rule):
1) Peace between the Protestants and France; and
2) Marguerite de Valois marries Henry IV Navarre.