Thatcher's Politicial Legacy.

[crazy canuck]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

I didnt want to clutter the other thread with this discussion so I will post a response to Jacob's assertion that the communities she "destroyed" were prosperous before her policies were implemented.  Stuff and nonsense. Unless by prosperous he means reliant on government funding to support industry that could no support itself.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, that doesn't mean we'd get Thatcherism.

Besides putting the dying animal of the British industrial system mercifully to sleep but else is there to Thatcherism?

Gups already put up a pretty good list.  You should read it.

[The Larch]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

[crazy canuck]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

[The Larch]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

Spain did, at roughly the same time, during the mid 80s, following a similar pattern. My hometown had some pretty badass riots because of the restructuring of the shipbuilding sector. Other regions had reforms in mining, or in steel mills. And it was all done by a left wing PM, and he managed to be reelected after that.

[Jacob]

I didnt want to clutter the other thread with this discussion so I will post a response to Jacob's assertion that the communities she "destroyed" were prosperous before her policies were implemented.  Stuff and nonsense. Unless by prosperous he means reliant on government funding to support industry that could no support itself.

I actually meant it in the eyes of the residents.

You may well be right that they were parasites living off the government. Thatcher's policies may well have been the best way of dealing with the issue - that does seem to be the prevailing view on languish.

I was trying to explain the antipathy. And I think the explanation stands; if you're called out as a parasite and have what you see as your economic future destroyed from under you, and you watch your community crumble; you're probably not going to like the person who leads that effort. Even if there is no shortage of people willing to proclaim that she's in fact right and you are a parasite.

[Jacob]

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

There's not much heavy industry left in Denmark either. We used to be one of the premier ship-builders globally (at least given our size). The wharfs pretty much all shut down in that same period.

[crazy canuck]

I can't think of any country that has experienced economic success with the pre-Thatcher model of state ownership of money-losing overpaid heavy industry.

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

Spain did, at roughly the same time, during the mid 80s, following a similar pattern. My hometown had some pretty badass riots because of the restructuring of the shipbuilding sector. Other regions had reforms in mining, or in steel mills. And it was all done by a left wing PM, and he managed to be reelected after that.

There is a difference between reforming some aspects of the economy and what Thatcher did.  Granted there were many Western countries that had reforms.  They had to after the disasterous post war policies (and particularly those of the 60s and 70s of government intervention in the economy. But non of those reforms were on the scale of taking on a union that effectively controlled the political process.  What she did was not just end government subsidies.  She ended the government role in running the largest industry in the UK and in the process she ended the rule of the union that controlled it.

[crazy canuck]

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

There's not much heavy industry left in Denmark either. We used to be one of the premier ship-builders globally (at least given our size). The wharfs pretty much all shut down in that same period.

What does absence of industry have to do with it?  Did the shipbuiding unions in Denmark control the political process?  Did the Danish government control the shipbuilding industry? Did some courageous Danish politician say no to all of that?

[Zanza]

Name one that went through as dramatic a change as the UK?

East Germany.

[crazy canuck]

I didnt want to clutter the other thread with this discussion so I will post a response to Jacob's assertion that the communities she "destroyed" were prosperous before her policies were implemented.  Stuff and nonsense. Unless by prosperous he means reliant on government funding to support industry that could no support itself.

I actually meant it in the eyes of the residents.

You may well be right that they were parasites living off the government. Thatcher's policies may well have been the best way of dealing with the issue - that does seem to be the prevailing view on languish.

I was trying to explain the antipathy. And I think the explanation stands; if you're called out as a parasite and have what you see as your economic future destroyed from under you, and you watch your community crumble; you're probably not going to like the person who leads that effort. Even if there is no shortage of people willing to proclaim that she's in fact right and you are a parasite.

If you realize that you are a parasite living off the goverment tit and you still think that you are prosperous then you have a real problem.

[MadImmortalMan]

Eh, we'll continue to get rude awakening after rude awakening...and we'll continue to centralize and intervene economically. I don't necessarily have a philosophical problem with that as much as I have a practical problem with it. The more structure we build around these services, the more we have tiny numbers of people tipping the scales this way and that, the more fragile we make our complex economic system to violent shocks...just like bacteria become more resistant the more antibiotics we throw at them.

I just read a book you might like.

[Martinus]

Eh, we'll continue to get rude awakening after rude awakening...and we'll continue to centralize and intervene economically. I don't necessarily have a philosophical problem with that as much as I have a practical problem with it. The more structure we build around these services, the more we have tiny numbers of people tipping the scales this way and that, the more fragile we make our complex economic system to violent shocks...just like bacteria become more resistant the more antibiotics we throw at them.

I just read a book you might like.

Cool story, bro.

[Admiral Yi]

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Perhaps that says something about the people doing the reviled and not the object of revulsion.

[MadImmortalMan]

I think that the point to make on that is that other countries carried out similar policies of restructuring their industrial sectors without becoming reviled in the process.

Perhaps that says something about the people doing the reviled and not the object of revulsion.

It's still completely understandable.