NCAA football, 2013-14

[Valmy]

Well obviously a minority of the scholarship players are serious students.  Also programs have significant numbers of walk-ons who were accepted the regular way.  Guys like Rudy.

[alfred russel]

I'm going to speak soley about Notre Dame.

In my opinion, football results in more applications and an overall better student body (offsetting the football players). It also builds a sense of community in the school. There are also the money it brings in (which in Notre Dame's case goes in part to academics).

Aside from that, it has a very big benefit in the alumni community. I've been out of the country, and if I want to see Notre Dame, if it is a big city I just contact the alumni association and they get me the info of the local chapter of the association which is inevitably having a watch party. In terms of networking, that effect really can't be beat.

Not to discount that it is also just a lot of fun for everybody.

[The Minsky Moment]

Is your opinion of Stanford really hinging on the academic accomplishments of their jocks?

If Stanford admitted patently unqualified athletes it would definitely affect my opinion of Stanford. 

I understand that "everyone does it" (not really true but close enough I suppose) and this has gone on for over a century but those are not legitimate excuses.  The fact is that it is getting worse because the competition for the lucrative lottery of NBA/NFL millions is much higher than it was in say the 50s when sports salaries were barely more than good blue collar jobs and because of the corrupting impact of the oceans of media money flowing into the colleges.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'm going to speak soley about Notre Dame.

In my opinion, football results in more applications and an overall better student body (offsetting the football players). It also builds a sense of community in the school. There are also the money it brings in (which in Notre Dame's case goes in part to academics).

Aside from that, it has a very big benefit in the alumni community. I've been out of the country, and if I want to see Notre Dame, if it is a big city I just contact the alumni association and they get me the info of the local chapter of the association which is inevitably having a watch party. In terms of networking, that effect really can't be beat.

Not to discount that it is also just a lot of fun for everybody.

You could say the same thing about Army or Navy, or even the Ivies. 
None of the benefits you mention would be lost if standards were rigorously enforced and sports scholarships eliminated across the entire NCAA.

Except perhaps the money.  There would be less money.  And that is really what this is all about. 

[Rasputin]

I'm going to speak soley about Notre Dame.

In my opinion, football results in more applications and an overall better student body (offsetting the football players). It also builds a sense of community in the school. There are also the money it brings in (which in Notre Dame's case goes in part to academics).

Aside from that, it has a very big benefit in the alumni community. I've been out of the country, and if I want to see Notre Dame, if it is a big city I just contact the alumni association and they get me the info of the local chapter of the association which is inevitably having a watch party. In terms of networking, that effect really can't be beat.

Not to discount that it is also just a lot of fun for everybody.

You could say the same thing about Army or Navy, or even the Ivies. 
None of the benefits you mention would be lost if standards were rigorously enforced and sports scholarships eliminated across the entire NCAA.

Except perhaps the money.  There would be less money.  And that is really what this is all about.

...and where does a public not for profit university spend its net revenues?

1. on professor's salaries to increase the quality of the professor,

2. on buildings,

3. on academic scholarships for the underprivileged but academically deserving,

4. on title 9 scholarships for female students, and

5. on massive research undertakings.

At the end of the day, the net revenue generated from football programs (i.e. the excess over the massive cost of having a major football program) increases the amount of people that the major land grant universities can educate; it impoves the quality of their education; it increases the amount and quality of research to be performed; and it decreases the burden otherwise to be born by the taxpayer because most legislatures decrease funding to the extent that a public university can generate excess revenue. Do away with it and we wind up in a far more elitist world with even greater disparity between the haves and have nots. Again, you may not like how the sausage is made but the sausage is not a bad thing.

[alfred russel]

You could say the same thing about Army or Navy, or even the Ivies. 
None of the benefits you mention would be lost if standards were rigorously enforced and sports scholarships eliminated across the entire NCAA.

Except perhaps the money.  There would be less money.  And that is really what this is all about.

The army, navy, and Ivies aren't completely clean in this. The military academies give their players special admission consideration, though obviously not to the extent of the factories. They are also limited by the constraint of making graduates officers.

What kind of standards can be enforced? Anyone who wants to go to college can go to college. My understanding is that the NCAA requirements are something like an 800 SAT score or successful progress in a community college. There are probably football playing colleges that have normal students that scored around the former.

Taking away scholarships just means that players be paid nothing for their labor.

[The Minsky Moment]

Rasputin,
Those revenues also get spent on lavish coaches salaries and perks, large stadiums and facilities, fat recruitment budgets.

Sure there is a decent chunk of change left over, at least for the more successful programs.  It helps when through a helpful loophole in the labor laws, you can run your de facto professional sports league without paying out cash to the labor.  Even then, the less successful programs are going to struggle to break even.  There is another elistism at work, which gets back to some of berkut's SEC critique.

At the end of the day it comes down to saying whether an evil should be tolerated because of the good that it can produce as a by-product.
There is no way to answer that question purely objectively.  But the PSU affair should give reason to pause.  The way a supposedly model institution acted at all levels, with official connivance, to protect the money flow at all costs is an object lesson in how deep the corruption can run.

[The Minsky Moment]

The military academies give their players special admission consideration

That is not where the problem lies.  Sporting ability can be a valid admission consideration, just as say musical ability or unique life experiences.  Admission criteria aren't and shouldn't be 100% academic.  But many division I schools have gone far past that line.

[grumbler]

Michigan just fired their offensive Coordinator: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24402675/michigan-dismisses-offensive-coordinator-al-borges

I hear Major Applewhite will be available soon.

Good for Hoke, and the program.  Al Borges just wasn't getting the job done.

Now they need to get Jim Harbaugh to take the job.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin,
Those revenues also get spent on lavish coaches salaries and perks, large stadiums and facilities, fat recruitment budgets.

Sure there is a decent chunk of change left over, at least for the more successful programs.  It helps when through a helpful loophole in the labor laws, you can run your de facto professional sports league without paying out cash to the labor.  Even then, the less successful programs are going to struggle to break even.  There is another elistism at work, which gets back to some of berkut's SEC critique.

At the end of the day it comes down to saying whether an evil should be tolerated because of the good that it can produce as a by-product.
There is no way to answer that question purely objectively.  But the PSU affair should give reason to pause.  The way a supposedly model institution acted at all levels, with official connivance, to protect the money flow at all costs is an object lesson in how deep the corruption can run.

first as I was referring to net revenues, the salaries don't matter as they are not part of the net...ultimately, as with any business, management has to decide whether the yield it is receiving justifies the labor cost and in sports, perhaps more than any other business, labor's results are easily measured and the market corrects very quickly

second, its not a free labor pool, the schools give the athlete room board and an education all of which get paid for out of the revenues the program generates all of which have value...indeed putting my daughter through college brings this point home clearly

are there evils that ought to be corrected?  sure --but on the whole the football factories educate the masses

psu is indeed the perfect example...what happened there was criminal and the result of those in charge putting their brand ahead of their students...there is no excuse for what psu allowed to occur.  We cannot however ignore that that very same football program, before it became corrupt turned a small agricultural college into one of the world's leading research institutions.

lets curb the abuses, do away with the corruption, but not condemn the greatest revenue generators that America's public universities have merely because their football programs have become businesses

[Valmy]

My understanding is Texas refuses to sign off on any team that isn't going to build net revenue for the conference what that means obviously is adding the school increases the total conference revenue enough that each of the current team's preserves its current payout--the expectation is just adding Cincy and UCF or something doesn't give you the product necessary to go and negotiate a new TV deal and etc such that you can make that a reality.

That was not just Texas and that was the policy of the old AD, Texas is not some bizarre hive mind.  Deloss Dodds is no longer around and I have no idea what Steve Patterson thinks about it.  But even if he was for expansion, most of the other schools are not interested in their TV money being decreased, they depend on it far more than Texas does.

[Valmy]

Michigan just fired their offensive Coordinator: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24402675/michigan-dismisses-offensive-coordinator-al-borges

I hear Major Applewhite will be available soon.

Good for Hoke, and the program.  Al Borges just wasn't getting the job done.

Now they need to get Jim Harbaugh to take the job.

I am sure he is just waiting by the phone.

Actually it seems they just gave the job to the Alabama OC without even calling Jim.  FIRE THE AD

[katmai]

Heh the scuttlebut out of Washington is expect Kiffin to be named OC at Alabama

[Valmy]

Rasputin,
Those revenues also get spent on lavish coaches salaries and perks, large stadiums and facilities, fat recruitment budgets.

Sure there is a decent chunk of change left over, at least for the more successful programs.  It helps when through a helpful loophole in the labor laws, you can run your de facto professional sports league without paying out cash to the labor.  Even then, the less successful programs are going to struggle to break even.  There is another elistism at work, which gets back to some of berkut's SEC critique.

At the end of the day it comes down to saying whether an evil should be tolerated because of the good that it can produce as a by-product.
There is no way to answer that question purely objectively.  But the PSU affair should give reason to pause.  The way a supposedly model institution acted at all levels, with official connivance, to protect the money flow at all costs is an object lesson in how deep the corruption can run.

It is tolerated because it is an old institution as old as the Universities themselves (Well almost as old) with huge political and cultural importance.  You are basically saying our traditions and entire foundation of our Universities going back into the 19th century are evil.  They may be but it is kind of hard, if not impossible, to throw off something so cherished and beloved and foundational to those Universities.  Saying it is only about the money really misses the major factors at play here and frankly is baffling and hilariously out of touch.  You think the Penn State fans rallied around the University because they give a damn about the revenues or because they love sex offenders?  You clearly do not get it.  You might as well be demanding we cancel Christmas to alot of these places.

I am in favor of major reforms, basically detaching the teams from the Student Bodies and only allowing those who qualify to actually attend classes and paying the players for their services.  But you have to be really careful because no politician would risk the rage and fury of the population if you tried to take away something like College Football.  There might just be an insurrection.

[Valmy]

Is your opinion of Stanford really hinging on the academic accomplishments of their jocks?

If Stanford admitted patently unqualified athletes it would definitely affect my opinion of Stanford. 

Well you should know while they have standards a bit higher than most almost none of those players would be admitted to Stanford normally, same with Berkeley.