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NCAA football, 2013-14

Started by grumbler, March 21, 2013, 07:27:00 PM

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grumbler

Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2014, 02:09:38 PM
Surely the Big 10, pre-Penn State, had a nine game schedule.

Edit: Huh it appears they didn't.  That's lame.

The Big Ten played a complete round robin for two years, I believe.  They go back to nine games starting next year.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

OttoVonBismarck

I remember for years during the Big 11 era they did only 8 conference games so you ended up with weird situations...I seem to remember one year where Wisconsin was really good but never played OSU (the other good team that year)

Valmy

Quote from: alfred russel on January 08, 2014, 02:42:43 PM
This also comes down to whether the Big 12 should stick with 10 schools or go to 12.

My brother is a UCF grad and superfan and is convinced/deluded that the Big 12 will invite UCF. What do you think?

I tend to think, if the Big 12 expands, the obvious target is BYU (who has to accept at this point). I don't know the partner. Cincinnati? Houston? SMU? If they go to 14, UCF and USF could make some sense. But why that would make the conference better escapes me.

It would take a shift in leadership for the Big 12 to expand.  I am all for it, of course, but when old man Dodds was running Texas he and the OU AD were determined to keep it at 10.  UT has new leadership but OU, and other schools I suspect, has little interest in reducing their TV money.  I would be shocked if Steve Patterson, the new UT AD, is going to be some sort of crusader for expansion.  It is annoying, short sighted, and stupid IMO.  The league should have taken Louisville when they invited West Virginia.  They should have jumped on the ACC when it appeared weak.  They never miss a chance to miss a chance.

I would be in favor of adding BYU and UCF of course.  But I would rate the chances of that as very very low.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

PDH

Duh.  The obvious choice is Wyoming to the Big 12.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Savonarola

Shocked, yes I am...

Quote(CNN) -- Early in her career as a learning specialist, Mary Willingham was in her office when a basketball player at the University of North Carolina walked in looking for help with his classwork.

He couldn't read or write.

"And I kind of panicked. What do you do with that?" she said, recalling the meeting.
Willingham's job was to help athletes who weren't quite ready academically for the work required at UNC at Chapel Hill, one of the country's top public universities.

But she was shocked that one couldn't read. And then she found he was not an anomaly.
Soon, she'd meet a student-athlete who couldn't read multisyllabic words. She had to teach him to sound out Wis-con-sin, as kids do in elementary school.

And then another came with this request: "If I could teach him to read well enough so he could read about himself in the news, because that was something really important to him," Willingham said.

Student-athletes who can't read well, but play in the money-making collegiate sports of football and basketball, are not a new phenomenon, and they certainly aren't found only at UNC-Chapel Hill.

A CNN investigation found public universities across the country where many students in the basketball and football programs could read only up to an eighth-grade level. The data obtained through open records requests also showed a staggering achievement gap between college athletes and their peers at the same institution.

This is not an exhaustive survey of all universities with major sports programs; CNN chose a sampling of public universities where open records laws apply. We sought data from a total of 37 institutions, of which 21 schools responded. The others denied our request for entrance exam or aptitude test scores, some saying the information did not exist and others citing privacy rules. Some simply did not provide it in time.

Academic vs. athletic scandal

As a graduate student at UNC-Greensboro, Willingham researched the reading levels of 183 UNC-Chapel Hill athletes who played football or basketball from 2004 to 2012. She found that 60% read between fourth- and eighth-grade levels. Between 8% and 10% read below a third-grade level.

"So what are the classes they are going to take to get a degree here? You cannot come here with a third-, fourth- or fifth-grade education and get a degree here," she told CNN.

The issue was highlighted at UNC two years ago with the exposure of a scandal where students, many of them athletes, were given grades for classes they didn't attend, and where they did nothing more than turn in a single paper. Last month, a North Carolina grand jury indicted a professor at the center of the scandal on fraud charges. He's accused of being paid $12,000 for a class he didn't teach.

When Willingham worked as a learning specialist for athletes from 2003 to 2010, she admits she took part in cheating, signing her name to forms that said she witnessed no NCAA rules violations when in fact she did. But the NCAA, the college sports organizing body, never interviewed her. Instead, it found no rules had been broken at Chapel Hill.

UNC now says 120 reforms put in place ensure there are no academic transgressions.

But Willingham said fake classes were just a symptom of the bigger problem of enrolling good athletes who didn't have the reading skills to succeed at college.

"Isn't it all cheating if I'm sitting at a table with a kid who can't read or write at college level and pulling a paper out of them? Is this really legitimate? No," Willingham told CNN. "I wouldn't do that today with a college student; I only did it with athletics, because it's necessary."

NCAA sports are big business, with millions of dollars at stake for winning programs.

In 2012, the University of Louisville earned a profit of $26.9 million from its men's basketball program, according to figures that schools have to file with the Department of Education and were analyzed by CNNMoney. That's about 60% more than the $16.9 million profit at the University of North Carolina, whose men's hoops team had the second-largest profit.
Willingham, now a graduation adviser with access to student files, said she believes there are still athletes at UNC who can't do the coursework.

UNC Athletics Director Bubba Cunningham told CNN the school admits only students it believes can succeed.

"I think our students have an exceptional experience in the classroom as well as on the fields of competition," he said.

Anecdotally, NCAA officials admit there are probably stories that are troubling, but they also say the vast majority of student-athletes compete at a high level in the classroom.

"Are there students coming to college underprepared? Sure. They are not just student-athletes," said Kevin Lennon, vice president of academic and membership affairs at the NCAA.
But he said the NCAA sees it as the responsibility of universities to decide what level athlete should be admitted to their schools.

"Once the school admits them, the school should do everything it can to make sure the student succeeds," he said. "(Universities) don't want a national standard that says who they can recruit and admit. They want those decisions with the president, provost and athletic directors. That is the critical piece of all of this."

Scarce information

The NCAA admits that almost 30 athletes in sports that make revenue for schools were accepted in 2012 with very low scores -- below 700 on the SAT composite, where the national average is 1000. That's a small percentage of about 5,700 revenue-sport athletes.
However, the NCAA did not share raw data. The U.S. Department of Education does not track statistics on the topic, nor do the conferences.

In fact, CNN only found one person in addition to Willingham who has ever collected data on the topic. University of Oklahoma professor Gerald Gurney found that about 10% of revenue-sport athletes there were reading below a fourth-grade level.

So, after consulting with several academic experts, CNN filed public records requests and concluded that what Willingham found at UNC and Gurney found at Oklahoma is also happening elsewhere.

The data CNN collected is based on the SAT and ACT entrance exam scores of athletes playing the revenue sports: football and basketball.

In some cases, where that information was not available, CNN then asked for aptitude test scores administered after the athlete was accepted by the university.

Based on data from those requests and dozens of interviews, a CNN investigation revealed that most schools have between 7% and 18% of revenue sport athletes who are reading at an elementary school level. Some had even higher percentages of below-threshold athletes.
According to those academic experts, the threshold for being college-literate is a score of 400 on the SAT critical reading or writing test. On the ACT, that threshold is 16.

Many student-athletes scored in the 200s and 300s on the SAT critical reading test -- a threshold that experts told us was an elementary reading level and too low for college classes. The lowest score possible on that part of the SAT is 200, and the national average is 500.

On the ACT, we found some students scoring in the single digits, when the highest possible score is 36 and the national average is 20. In most cases, the team average ACT reading score was in the high teens.

"It is in many ways immoral for the university to even admit that student," said Dr. Richard M. Southall, director of the College Sport Research Institute and a professor at the University of South Carolina.

Scores aren't the whole story

Officials at the universities from which CNN collected data all said they recognized the low scores -- and gave several possible reasons for them:

-- Some athletes don't aim for high scores when taking entrance exams, looking only to score high enough to become NCAA eligible.

-- Many times, low scores are indicators of learning disabilities.

-- Entrance exams are just one factor taken into consideration when deciding whether to accept a student-athlete.

The officials also said they believe excellent tutoring and extra attention from academic support allows these athletes to excel off the field as well as on, and many cited the high graduation rates of athletes.

Robert Stacey, dean of the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Washington, said the conversation should be about the achievement gap -- the difference between the academic levels of the athletes and their nonathlete peers at the same university.
"We know how to close the achievement gap. It's just very expensive," he said. "A student who scored a 380 on his or her (SAT) critical reading is going to face tremendous challenges, won't be able to compete the first year with a student who has a 650 or 700. But with intensive tutoring -- and I'm not talking about cheating, I'm talking about tutoring -- by the time they get to be juniors, they're competing. But it's a very expensive process. It takes intensive work."

But some of the universities from which CNN sought data didn't even have remedial classes for student-athletes to attend. Athletes, many times, take the field before they even get to a classroom. And even if, over time, they can be brought up to speed, how are they getting through the first few semesters?

We found one plausible explanation at Iowa State -- where the achievement gap between students and student-athletes was fairly low.

There, any athlete who is specially admitted -- they would not have gotten in on academics alone -- is mandated to start school in the summer term, where they are given remediation.
Tom Hill, senior vice president for student affairs, said it's done partly because the school recognizes that it is simply too much to ask athletes to jump into a tough schedule of practice and games, plus keep up classwork, especially if they are already academically behind.
"We'll provide them with support and help to begin the process to shore up deficiencies," Hill said. "It's not just throwing them in there."

Hill also said that Iowa State -- a land-grant university that takes many students from small, rural towns across the state -- doesn't separate academic support for athletes from the rest of the student population. Anyone can get the same tutoring as an athlete does.

Hill, who has a long background as an administrator in college athletics, said he is well aware of the practices of pushing athletes through at more competitive schools. And he is blunt about what he thinks of it.

"Those people who do that should be arrested," Hill said. "We should make it against the law. I know it happens. I've spent time in athletics."

Former and current academic advisers, tutors and professors say it's nearly impossible to jump from an elementary to a college reading level while juggling a hectic schedule as an NCAA athlete. They say the NCAA graduation rates are flawed because they don't reflect when a student is being helped too much by academic support.

"They're pushing them through," said Billy Hawkins, an associate professor and athlete mentor at the University of Georgia.

"They're graduating them. UGA is graduating No. 2 in the SEC, so they're able to graduate athletes, but have they learned anything? Are they productive citizens now? That's a thing I worry about. To get a degree is one thing, to be functional with that degree is totally different."

Hawkins, who says in his 25 years at various universities he's witnessed some student-athletes fail to meet college reading standards, added: "It's too much for students reading below a college level. It's basically a farce."

Gurney, who looked into the situation at the University of Oklahoma, put it bluntly: "College presidents have put in jeopardy the academic credibility of their universities just so we can have this entertainment industry. ... The NCAA continually wants to ignore this fact, but they are admitting students who cannot read.

"College textbooks are written at the ninth-grade level, so we are putting these elite athletes into classes where they can't understand the textbooks. Imagine yourself sitting in a class where nothing makes sense."

Risks and rewards

All of the university representatives we talked to deny that their tutors do too much work for student-athletes who come in at such low reading levels.

"I lose sleep about a lot of things; I don't lose sleep about writing tutors. We are extremely strict," said Brian Davis, associate athletics director for football student services at the University of Texas, acknowledging there were, of course, challenges.

"You have to minimize the risk as much as you can. If you're signing 20 (recruits), you can't have 30 to 50% extremely at risk. It puts way too much pressure on the system. That's when you get into more nefarious issues, and I'm very proud of how we've addressed the risk factors," Davis said.

There are anecdotes of student athletes who do succeed. Christine Simatacolos, the associate athletics director for student life at the University of Louisville in Kentucky, talks of a student whose low scores fell below the college literacy threshold but who graduated from Louisiana State University and is now in medical school.

But far more anecdotes of failure were recounted to CNN during our monthlong research.
Kadence Otto, who once taught at Florida State University, recalled one situation where an academic support tutor would call every week to check up on a starting player.

"I would say, 'He's not doing well. He can't read and write.' And (the tutor) said, 'Well, we'll see what we can do,'" Otto said. That stopped with a career-ending injury. "He's worth nothing to the team, and I never once heard back from the academic support adviser. He never showed up to class again, either."

Otto, who now teaches at Western Carolina University, says that experience had a big impact.
"That's one of the reasons I got into working in corruption in college sports. Sending
messages that maybe they don't really care about the athletes as people," she said. And as for claims by institutions that they can bring poor readers up to speed with tutoring, she said: "Honestly, it feels to me it's like trying to turn a Little League Baseball player into a pro."

Periodically since the 1980s, stories have surfaced of athletes who could not read.

-- Former basketball player Kevin Ross told ESPN's "Outside the Lines" about his struggles at Creighton University in the 1980s.

-- In 1989, football player Dexter Manley told Congress that he got through college and into the pros without ever learning to read.

-- Dasmine Cathey's compelling story of struggle at the University of Memphis was recounted by The Chronicle of Higher Education in 2012.

And as far back as the 1980s, faculty and staff have spoken up about illiterate athletes who are pushed through with passing grades to keep up their eligibility to play, while their reading was little addressed.

Linda Bensel-Meyers, who worked for Tennessee until 2003, said a university-hired psychologist would diagnose learning disabilities in athletes and put them in a program without the graduation requirements set for other students.

"Many of the records I looked at revealed that these athletes came to us essentially illiterate and still left the school functionally illiterate," Bensel-Meyers told CNN.

When contacted by CNN, Tennessee did not answer questions.

Then there was Brenda Monk. In 2009, the former Florida State University learning specialist told ESPN's "Outside the Lines" that she was forced to resign from the university as a cheating scandal surfaced in which the NCAA said that tutors were writing papers for athletes and giving them answers to test scores.

Monk denied the allegation that she did too much work for athletes, but she said she saw some of them reading at second- and third-grade levels.

The NCAA levied sanctions against Florida State in 2009, including vacating wins and reduced scholarships.

Florida State did not provide CNN with records in response to our request.

Change ahead?

In December, the Drake Group, which pushes for academic integrity in collegiate sports, organized a lobbying trip to Washington to push for an amendment to the College Education Act of 1965. Director Allen Sack said he wants to see a College Athlete Protection Act -- legislation that would keep athletes on the bench as freshmen if they are academically more than one standard deviation lower than the average student admitted to the university.
"That's unconscionable, to bring in a young athlete who does not fit in the general profile of the student body and have them play football on national television before they've entered the classroom for the first time in the fall," Sack said.

U.S. Rep. Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania introduced legislation in the House last year that calls for a complete overhaul of the NCAA. When he talked to CNN, he cited the lack of consistency in the way recent NCAA investigations into various improprieties were handled at Auburn, Florida State, Miami, North Carolina, Ohio State and Penn State.

"I think (the NCAA) needs to be looked at. I think they need to be reined in," Dent said.
Mary Willingham went on the trip to Washington and said she came back feeling that they could make some progress in bringing change.

Others aren't so confident that a beast as big as collegiate athletics can be tamed.

Of course this isn't news; there's even a scene in "Knute Rockne: All American" where Knute, Bill Spaulding, Pop Warner, Howard Jones, and Alonzo Stagg are grilled by congress over Student-Athletes cheating. 
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock

Valmy

I remember when it came out that Dexter Manley couldn't read when he was playing for the Redskins.  I was like 'wait didn't he...go to College'?

Sure enough he spent four years at Oklahoma State University.  I wonder what sort of classes he took  :lol:
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

sbr

Probably in their honors programs

Valmy

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

The Minsky Moment

I saw this study.  Good academic state schools like UT and UF are routinely granting sports scholarships to grossly deificient candidates.  It makes a mockery of the institution.  I don't see how an alumnus can watch those games and feel pride about what happens on the field knowing how the sauage is made.  While I think Berkut made some points vs. SEC, it is like critiquing the playing of the second violinist on the Titanic as the ship goes down. 
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Valmy

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2014, 05:51:50 PM
I saw this study.  Good academic state schools like UT and UF are routinely granting sports scholarships to grossly deificient candidates.  It makes a mockery of the institution.  I don't see how an alumnus can watch those games and feel pride about what happens on the field knowing how the sauage is made.  While I think Berkut made some points vs. SEC, it is like critiquing the playing of the second violinist on the Titanic as the ship goes down. 

It has been this way for over 100 years.  It is not like anybody thinks a lot of those guys could qualify without being sports stars.  They just have to make the NCAA minimums (I know when I was in school it was a 700 on the SAT) which are significantly lower than what would normally get them into the student body.  Naturally plenty of the football guys cannot even get the minimums and have to go play in Community College or Junior College.

I guess I figure you have to at least be minimally literate to make a 700 on the SAT (or whatever the equivalent is today). 
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

alfred russel

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2014, 05:51:50 PM
I saw this study.  Good academic state schools like UT and UF are routinely granting sports scholarships to grossly deificient candidates.  It makes a mockery of the institution.  I don't see how an alumnus can watch those games and feel pride about what happens on the field knowing how the sauage is made.  While I think Berkut made some points vs. SEC, it is like critiquing the playing of the second violinist on the Titanic as the ship goes down.

85 morons doesn't change anything about the school. And some of them may actually be smart, or learn something along the way.

When I was in the B-school at Notre Dame, group work was heavily emphasized in all classes. The general understanding was that if a football player was in your group, he would basically contribute nothing. Not because he was stupid, but because the time commitments meant he would never make a meeting.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

dps

Can't put all the blame for this stuff on the colleges anyhow.  The problems start well before then, in the primary and secondary schools.  Face it, a lot of these guys shouldn't even be graduating from h.s. in the first place, which would render admission to college a moot point.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: alfred russel on January 08, 2014, 06:00:25 PM
85 morons doesn't change anything about the school.

it means that 85 otherwise meritorious people don't get in.  It means as you say below that 85 people will be dead weight.  It means the school is sending a message that winning football games is more important than maintaining standards.  In my personal opinion, it changes a lot; it certainly changes my view of that institution.

QuoteAnd some of them may actually be smart, or learn something along the way.

When I was in the B-school at Notre Dame, group work was heavily emphasized in all classes. The general understanding was that if a football player was in your group, he would basically contribute nothing. Not because he was stupid, but because the time commitments meant he would never make a meeting.

These two paragraphs are contradictory.  What you say at the end suggests that not only will the 85 almost certainly NOT learn anything along the way, but several times that many students who COULD have learned something also will not because the school has chosen to put a higher priority on a game than on its pedagogical mission.  So, to continue the Titantic metaphor, the 85 is just the tip of the iceberg
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Valmy

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2014, 06:13:02 PM
it means that 85 otherwise meritorious people don't get in.  It means as you say below that 85 people will be dead weight.  It means the school is sending a message that winning football games is more important than maintaining standards.  In my personal opinion, it changes a lot; it certainly changes my view of that institution.

I assure you football players are not going to impact whether or not anybody else gets in, at least not at UT where incoming classes are in the thousands.  And in any case you are talking about hundreds of colleges here that basically do this.  Is your opinion of Stanford really hinging on the academic accomplishments of their jocks?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Rasputin

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 08, 2014, 05:51:50 PM
I saw this study.  Good academic state schools like UT and UF are routinely granting sports scholarships to grossly deificient candidates.  It makes a mockery of the institution.  I don't see how an alumnus can watch those games and feel pride about what happens on the field knowing how the sauage is made.  While I think Berkut made some points vs. SEC, it is like critiquing the playing of the second violinist on the Titanic as the ship goes down.

While I wish it were different, many scholar athletes are more athlete than scholar. There are exceptions even at football factories like fsu, who has had starting football stars working on masters degrees, in pre-med, winning a rhodes scholarship etc. I acknowledge that this is typically the exception to the rule.

Nonetheless to suggest that its a mockery to be eschewed by alumni ignores that without money to fund the mission there is no mission. As I best recall the statistics, by 1992, the football program at fsu had generated so much net revenue that it was able to both build a state of the art library and fully pre-fund every academic and athletic scholarship the school had to offer through 2000. When someone who cannot afford college is getting an academic scholarship, someone is still paying the school for the tuition just as the school must still pay its professors. At our land grant universities that someone is typically the scholarship football athlete in football or sometimes basketball (which are the only sports at most schools that run a net positive from a revenue standpoint). When it comes to funding its title 9 obligations it almost universally falls on the football program to fund the scholarships for women's sports, all of which run in the red.

I wish the sausage was better made but there are many very worthy people whose very education depended on that sausage whether they knew it or not.
Who is John Galt?