EU and US free-trade talks launched

[Tamas]

And I don't think that anyone organic acts superior to the poor. Their general view seems to be that you should buy organic, environmentally friendly, well-spoken produce as far as you can afford it. Their ire is far more likely to be on their fellow bourgeois who fail to 'shop ethically'.

biggest shock to me was this UK TV show of putting some city dwellers out to an organic farm, where, when not shoveling manure, they were touring modern chicken farms and such, with the host going all LOOK AT THE HORRIBLE CONDITIONS!!!! ARENT YOU ASHAMED THAT YOU HAVE EVER EATEN ANYTHING BUT ORGANIC?!!!!!

one of the dudes mentioned that if he is faced with the choice of a free-held chicken or a pair of shoes for his kid, he will go with the shoes.

[Neil]

saying that organic and open herding or whatever > modern agriculture means the endorsement of famine, or at least less population than what we have now and what we could feed.

Except nobody is starving due to lack of food production.  Distribution is the issue.

[Cecil]

saying that organic and open herding or whatever > modern agriculture means the endorsement of famine, or at least less population than what we have now and what we could feed.

Except nobody is starving due to lack of food production.  Distribution is the issue.

I seem to recall reading a few years ago that obesity is a bigger problem in the third world than starvation is.

[derspiess]

We've had a thread on that. I think organic meat is worth it, not necessarily for the organicness but the other stuff that'll go with it (free range etc.) but that there's little quality difference in most fruit and veg.

Yeah, people that cant tell the difference between organic (or at least grass fed) beef and industrial beef have lost the ability to taste food.

Same goes with organic (or at least free range) eggs.

Grass-fed beef, for sure.  The rest I'm not so sure about.  But I'm not a huge egg connoisseur.

[Tamas]

saying that organic and open herding or whatever > modern agriculture means the endorsement of famine, or at least less population than what we have now and what we could feed.

Except nobody is starving due to lack of food production.  Distribution is the issue.

You too, Brutus? the "distribution issue" is that we are willing to pay more for excess food than what 3rd worlders are able to pay. They should get their acts together and gain enough stability for at least semi-modern agriculture and everything would be fine.

[Zanza]

You too, Brutus? the "distribution issue" is that we are willing to pay more for excess food than what 3rd worlders are able to pay. They should get their acts together and gain enough stability for at least semi-modern agriculture and everything would be fine.

If they got their act together, they would have enough food for themselves and would still not need our food. Still would not have any relevance for the question about organic food in the rich world. 

[garbon]

You too, Brutus? the "distribution issue" is that we are willing to pay more for excess food than what 3rd worlders are able to pay. They should get their acts together and gain enough stability for at least semi-modern agriculture and everything would be fine.

If they got their act together, they would have enough food for themselves and would still not need our food. Still would not have any relevance for the question about organic food in the rich world. 

I think a better "attack"(?) would be that those who are insistent on things like free-range are devoting time and energy to care for animals that could be directed to helping fellow humans. Resources are finite and that being diverted for letting chickens run around could be used to help "starving" people (which could easily just be the homeless or poor in one's own neighborhood with no need to raise the spectre of the 3rd world).

[Tamas]

For the record, I do not agree with the stupid-ass sentiment I saw at times regarding free range and organic. Qutie the contrary. But do NOT tell me that you haven't encountered people being smug about eating that stuff. Just don't.

[Sheilbh]

Grass-fed beef, for sure.  The rest I'm not so sure about.  But I'm not a huge egg connoisseur.

Yeah free-range, grass fed beef definitely. The same goes for lamb and in my experience the biggest difference is with chicken and eggs. In the UK another popular thing is the revival of old breeds, especially of pigs, which again are often worth it.

You too, Brutus? the "distribution issue" is that we are willing to pay more for excess food than what 3rd worlders are able to pay. They should get their acts together and gain enough stability for at least semi-modern agriculture and everything would be fine.

Distribution matters. Remember that old stat about it being cheaper for someone in Ghana to import something from Europe than from Nigeria. Internal distribution networks are key and something stable, semi-modern agricultural countries like India and China have improved.

But again, as Zanza says, I don't see why Europeans paying more for their food leads to starvation unless, somehow without organic farming Europe would be the breadbasket of Africa.

For the record, I do not agree with the stupid-ass sentiment I saw at times regarding free range and organic. Qutie the contrary. But do NOT tell me that you haven't encountered people being smug about eating that stuff. Just don't.

Of course. But people are smug wearing a barbour jacket, listening to new albums, dancing in certain clubs, buying certain gadgets. Products are just a way of saying what sort of person you are. Identity's a commodity now people don't have class and religion

But that doesn't annoy me as long as the people aren't dicks about it.

[Admiral Yi]

Folks who bring up distribution need to clarify if they're talking about logistics, or income, or both.

[derspiess]

Yeah free-range, grass fed beef definitely. The same goes for lamb and in my experience the biggest difference is with chicken and eggs. In the UK another popular thing is the revival of old breeds, especially of pigs, which again are often worth it.

Lamb, chicken, and pork all taste better to me free-range/grass-fed.  I just don't notice any difference with eggs.  As long as they're fresh they taste the same to me.

[Zanza]

Both, clearly. The people actually threatened by famine usually live in countries with terrible logistics and often a very small, very rich elite that siphons of the countries' wealth. And of course in the bigger picture, they also often live in the poorest regions of the planet.

The last big famine was the East Africa drought in 2011-12. Let's be honest, the world produced enough food in 2011 to feed a few million poor East Africans without a problem. It's just that no one bought the food and transported it there.

I've been in Southern Ethiopia and the tribes living there are just extremely poor and live under stone-age conditions. It's really eye-opening when you see how poor people can be. European organic food couldn't possibly be more inconsequential for them. They live or die by what their own fields produce. The central government and the little wealth in the country is far away and the roads to the region are poor and only connect the bigger villages and towns. A lot of people don't live near to roads, so logistics couldn't possibly be worse.

There was one thing that served as a small reminder of the last famine they must have had there. The standard measure for all types of grain was always a tin that every market stand had. It looked like this:

[Neil]

saying that organic and open herding or whatever > modern agriculture means the endorsement of famine, or at least less population than what we have now and what we could feed.

Except nobody is starving due to lack of food production.  Distribution is the issue.

You too, Brutus? the "distribution issue" is that we are willing to pay more for excess food than what 3rd worlders are able to pay. They should get their acts together and gain enough stability for at least semi-modern agriculture and everything would be fine.

So you agree with me that your talk about 'endorsing famine' is nonsense?

[fhdz]

Folks who bring up distribution need to clarify if they're talking about logistics, or income, or both.

I would have to imagine it's both.

[OttoVonBismarck]

We've had a thread on that. I think organic meat is worth it, not necessarily for the organicness but the other stuff that'll go with it (free range etc.) but that there's little quality difference in most fruit and veg.

Yes, any hunter knows what an animal eats has a strong impact on its taste. The best beef though or best of various other products won't necessarily be raised along organic norms, necessarily. For example,some of the speciality Japanese beefs (which any American here who hasn't traveled out of the country has not had) probably would not be certifiable as organic, but it's pretty much the best beef in the world. I don't think you can do proper foie gras from an organic/free range bird, either.