Pope Benedict XVI 'is to resign'

[Caliga]

Maybe you have to be a Catholic to understand but: why does anyone give a shit about the Fatima stuff?  Wasn't it just a bunch of crap made up by some poor-ass Eggplant shepherd kids?

[Drakken]

Maybe you have to be a Catholic to understand but: why does anyone give a shit about the Fatima stuff?  Wasn't it just a bunch of crap made up by some poor-ass Eggplant shepherd kids?

Most (liberal, lapsed, or secular) Catholics nowadays don't. But traditionally (and officially) it was and still is considered a valid miracle. It's a problem, because the existence of miracles is a dogma of faith, so skeptical Catholics doubting the possibility of miracles tread a very fine line with heresy and heterodoxy.

Even the Holy See has a person whose job is to debunk miracles and false prophecies during beatification or canonization processes, aptly named the "Devil's Advocate". Seems the one assigned to the Fatima job in 1917 did a very, very bad job.

[Martinus]

Devil's Advocate is not (just) about debunking miracles etc., but about bringing any evidence that could put into doubt the saintly nature of the candidate.

For example, being buried alive is still a disqualifying factor in any canonization process (because the deceased could have blasphemied against God).

Likewise, the author who wrote the critical biography of Mother Theresa also was called to testify, based on his reading of her diary, where she doubted the existence of God.

[Viking]

Devil's Advocate is not (just) about debunking miracles etc., but about bringing any evidence that could put into doubt the saintly nature of the candidate.

For example, being buried alive is still a disqualifying factor in any canonization process (because the deceased could have blasphemied against God).

Likewise, the author who wrote the critical biography of Mother Theresa also was called to testify, based on his reading of her diary, where she doubted the existence of God.

Christopher Hitchens was the Advocatus Diaboli for Mother Theresa. He spend the rest of his life proudly declaring that he was the only person who represented the devil Pro Bono. Hitchens also claims that they abolished the office after the Mother Theresa canonization.

[The Larch]

Devil's Advocate is not (just) about debunking miracles etc., but about bringing any evidence that could put into doubt the saintly nature of the candidate.

For example, being buried alive is still a disqualifying factor in any canonization process (because the deceased could have blasphemied against God).

Likewise, the author who wrote the critical biography of Mother Theresa also was called to testify, based on his reading of her diary, where she doubted the existence of God.

Christopher Hitchens was the Advocatus Diaboli for Mother Theresa. He spend the rest of his life proudly declaring that he was the only person who represented the devil Pro Bono. Hitchens also claims that they abolished the office after the Mother Theresa canonization.

According to wiki JPII abolished the position in 1983.

[The Larch]

The catholic church in parts of latin america is getting its ass kicked by evangelicals.

I'd say that's fairly isolated for the moment.

Around 10% of the population of the whole continent, with some countries at 20% or so like Brazil and growing is hardly something isolated.

[alfred russel]

Around 10% of the population of the whole continent, with some countries at 20% or so like Brazil and growing is hardly something isolated.

Larch, say they were to make the Archbishop of Mexico the next pope. Would that generate any excitement in Spain?

[garbon]

You know the saying, who enters a conclave as Pope usually gets out as Cardinal.

I don't know what this means.

[Barrister]

You know the saying, who enters a conclave as Pope usually gets out as Cardinal.

I don't know what this means.

That line gets trotted out at every papal election.  It means the conclave never selects the front-runner.

The thing is Ratzinger was the front runner last time...

[Drakken]

I don't know what this means.

Those cardinals who enter the conclave as favourites rarely come out as popes.

The thing is Ratzinger was the front runner last time...

Still took two days and four ballots. For all we know maybe he wasn't leading or had a small majority, and cardinals banked around him for a transition pope.

[garbon]

Those cardinals who enter the conclave as favourites rarely come out as popes.

Oh gotcha.

[derspiess]

The catholic church in parts of latin america is getting its ass kicked by evangelicals.

I'd say that's fairly isolated for the moment.

Around 10% of the population of the whole continent, with some countries at 20% or so like Brazil and growing is hardly something isolated.

Isolated to the poors, then

[Viking]

You know the saying, who enters a conclave as Pope usually gets out as Cardinal.

I don't know what this means.

Hubris = Bad

[Iormlund]

Around 10% of the population of the whole continent, with some countries at 20% or so like Brazil and growing is hardly something isolated.

Larch, say they were to make the Archbishop of Mexico the next pope. Would that generate any excitement in Spain?

Really unlikely. Not even if they chose a Spaniard. Which they shouldn't, since it's pretty clear that Catholicism has lost Spain (and Europe) for good.

[Barrister]

Around 10% of the population of the whole continent, with some countries at 20% or so like Brazil and growing is hardly something isolated.

Larch, say they were to make the Archbishop of Mexico the next pope. Would that generate any excitement in Spain?

Really unlikely. Not even if they chose a Spaniard. Which they shouldn't, since it's pretty clear that Catholicism has lost Spain (and Europe) for good.

I doubt that is clear to the cardinals, however.