Is organized Christian religion in the West in its last throes?

[Malthus]

Being the punching bag of Britain, France and Russia is completely consistent with bossing the Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians.

And I'm not sure how accurate it is to call Turkey a punching bag either.

They handed some nasty defeats to the Brits - Galipoli and the Mesopotamian Campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut

[Razgovory]

well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.

Better to keep slavery then fight a war.  Or give a inch to religious people.

About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.

And scientific sanction.

[Valmy]

They handed some nasty defeats to the Brits - Galipoli and the Mesopotamian Campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut

Those were nice.  The problem is their defeats were so disastrous those couple nice wins did not come close to compensating.

[Admiral Yi]

Those were nice.  The problem is their defeats were so disastrous those couple nice wins did not come close to compensating.

What are you thinking of?

The only real disaster I can think of is the early Caucusus campaign.  They were driven out of Palestine and Lebanon but that hardly qualifies as a disaster.

[Valmy]

What are you thinking of?

The only real disaster I can think of is the early Caucusus campaign.  They were driven out of Palestine and Lebanon but that hardly qualifies as a disaster.

Losing huge chunks of your country and having your armies melt away in massive desertions is not a military disaster?  And I am thinking of all of them besides Kut and Gallipoli.  Turkey itself came very close to no longer existing for a second there.  And also you have to remember this came right after the Balkan Wars, the losses in the military were so severe that in many villages and towns in Anatolia there were no young men left.

[Martinus]

People wondered "what the hell they were doing" when they abolished slavery, granted universal franchise, and gained independence from Britain?

So they got one out of three right. Boo-hoo. 

[Razgovory]

I wonder which of these three that Marty supports.

[Barrister]

well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.

Better to keep slavery then fight a war.  Or give a inch to religious people.

About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.

And yet, curiously, the abolitionists also had religious sanction.

[Malthus]

What are you thinking of?

The only real disaster I can think of is the early Caucusus campaign.  They were driven out of Palestine and Lebanon but that hardly qualifies as a disaster.

Losing huge chunks of your country and having your armies melt away in massive desertions is not a military disaster?  And I am thinking of all of them besides Kut and Gallipoli.  Turkey itself came very close to no longer existing for a second there.  And also you have to remember this came right after the Balkan Wars, the losses in the military were so severe that in many villages and towns in Anatolia there were no young men left.

Certainly they lost the war and suffered greatly for it. But they were not the soft target (or "punching bag") that the Allies assumed they would be. In fact, their military acumen came as something of a shock.

[Valmy]

Certainly they lost the war and suffered greatly for it. But they were not the soft target (or "punching bag") that the Allies assumed they would be. In fact, their military acumen came as something of a shock.

Which was weird it was not like they had recently been rolling over to people despite their defeats.  Their soldiers had shown they could fight pretty fiecely, particularly on defense.  Usually they lost because their leadership was so incompetent.  The addition of those German advisors helped solve that problem a bit.

[Phillip V]

Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI.  How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?

ATATURK

[Martinus]

Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI.  How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?

ATATURK

good you recognize the value of a secular state

[Malthus]

Here's one thing I don't understand about WWI.  How did Turkey go from being a punching bag during the actual war, to routing everyone trying to partition it after the war?

ATATURK

Attaboy, Attaturk! 

[mongers]

Being the punching bag of Britain, France and Russia is completely consistent with bossing the Greeks, Bulgarians and Italians.

And I'm not sure how accurate it is to call Turkey a punching bag either.

They handed some nasty defeats to the Brits - Galipoli and the Mesopotamian Campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kut

Yes, including my great-great uncle who died 3 days after it capitulated.

[Viking]

well, not so much the results but rather the process. Abolishing slavery good, ending 700,000 human lives in war to do so is "what the hell were we doing" worthy.

Better to keep slavery then fight a war.  Or give a inch to religious people.

About time you come round and agree that slavery had religious sanction.

And scientific sanction.

science is tentative, religion is revealed truth