Elementary school shooting reported in Newtown, Conn.

[Grallon]

If the contradiction of allowing chattel slavery in a country founded on the principle that all men are created equal couldn't bring us down, the 2nd amendment's not going to get the job done.

Whatever you say brother *shrug*




G.

[derspiess]

  Grallon has correctly predicted 14 of the last zero collapses of the US correctly.

My favorite was his "throes of a theocracy" proclamation during the Bush years.

[Razgovory]

  Grallon has correctly predicted 14 of the last zero collapses of the US correctly.

I only need to be right once




G.

Broken clocks have better records then you do.

[Martinus]

I feel horrible that I laughed at this, hopefully some of you are similarly afflicted.

It's bullshit publicity stunt for Arby's so people are right to call them out on this. It's a tragedy for families, and a circus for the media and everyone else. Nothing else - more kids probably die each weekend in the US killed by drunk drivers.

[Admiral Yi]

Now I know where to go if I'm unsure whether I'm allowed to feel sad about something in the future.

[alfred russel]

I feel horrible that I laughed at this, hopefully some of you are similarly afflicted.

It's bullshit publicity stunt for Arby's so people are right to call them out on this. It's a tragedy for families, and a circus for the media and everyone else. Nothing else - more kids probably die each weekend in the US killed by drunk drivers.

It is definitely a circus for the media, but I doubt there was much corporate thought behind the facebook post from Arby's. They probably have some guy responsible for posting on facebook, he saw a sad current event, and posted a generic sentence about it.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?

My own kid's in grade 2 right now, so I can somewhat-sort of imagine the horrors the parents are going through.

Outside of terrorists, I think it's two things:

1. Genuine psychosis.

2. Extreme depression. I read a lot about Dylan Klebold and his family a few years ago, and some of my research at that time lead me to reading about how a small percentage, around 1-2% of people who commit suicide, choose to kill other people when they do so. Usually just a spouse or other close loved one. The thing that has to be understood about clinical depression, when it progresses to the point of genuine suicidal nature, that person's mental state is profoundly altered from that of a healthy person. They are not truly psychotic, as I think maybe the shooter in Aurora was and certainly the the Austin, TX shooter in the 60s (his is a rare example of psychosis coming directly from a physical alteration of the brain in the form of a malignancy around his hippocampus) but they are no longer normal, functioning human beings.

If you read Klebold's journals, and I have, I'd say 99% of them are masssive hatred and self-loathing for himself, combined with constant references to how his life is unbearable suffering and misery. I have studied other suicidal people, and they all have these feelings typically of self-loathing, unbearable life etc. Klebold's life from the outside wouldn't have seemed unbearable to most. Good parents, not abused, not significantly bullied in school (that's a common misconception about Klebold and Harris, Klebold was a popular athletic kid growing up and then became depressed and shy and didn't talk to anyone, that is why he wasn't very popular, not because he was picked on or bullied.)

Where Klebold starts to depart from other suicidal people, is in a small number of his writings the vehemence of his self-hate and rage is turned towards others, and he appears extremely angry at all of humanity, not for anything done to him but because they seemed to enjoy life and he never could. Basically enraged that he seemed to be the only one in the world who was suffering like this while everyone else was happy, he even spoke of how it almost felt like the world was conspiring against him in their happiness.

A lot of attention is given to what I feel are small pieces of Klebold's writings. Namely a paper he wrote in High School that discussed men with trenchcoats murdering high school students and the last few entries in his journal which talked about the actual shooting. But I think to me, the more telling stuff, what gets you to that point, is his depression manifested as extreme hatred and anger for all of humanity, almost as a sort of rage at his own misery being exacerbated by having to see the rest of society living their lives happily.

When a person is near to the point of suicide, a lot of the natural impulses all humans have are no longer going to be working correctly, it appears in a subset of that population a homicidal rage gets mixed in with it. I'll note that in this case, someone who is so far gone either through psychosis or depression, to kill their own mother, is not doing this for attention. Some killers like BTK obviously derived pleasure from toying with police and getting attention for himself (and that was his undoing) but it appears t hat was not his primary motivation. Aside from terrorists, who need attention for their attacks to have meaning, I don't really think most people that do stuff like this are doing it for attention at all.

[Martinus]

The Westboro Baptist Church, that affectionately dub themselves the 'God Hates Fags Church' has announced that the cause of the shootings in a Connecticut primary school was homosexuality.

The church that has picketed the funerals of US servicemen and women killed overseas has announced that it will picket the funerals of the children killed at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut. The church blames the advances in LGBT rights for everything bad that happens to Americans- saying that disasters and deaths are punishments from God for gay equality.

Twenty children and six adults were murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School on Friday. Most of the children that were killed were aged between six and seven.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, the attorney daughter of the church's founder Fred Phelps Tweeted: "Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment."

Another church member Tweeted" "God Almighty smacked USA with #Sandy & she's brazen in her sin still; THEN He gives you a right hook – make that #SandyHook! #RepentingYet??"

The church's founder Fred Phelps Tweeted "That's the message that this evil nation and world need: that God Almighty is on the march & nothing is gonna stop Him."

His son Fred Phelps junior Tweeted: "Beautiful work of an angry God who told Wisconsin to keep their filthy hands off his people (WBC)!"

Gay couples have been able to marry in the state of Connecticut since 2008. In September 2012, the state joined New York and Vermont in launching legal challenges to the federal ban on same-sex marriage and lack of country wide recognition of gay relationships.

Last year, the Supreme Court, with a majority of eight to one, ruled that the church should be allowed to picket funerals by relying on their First Amendment rights to free speech.

In 2009, the British Government placed a ban on members of the church entering the UK due to their attitude to homosexuality.

[CountDeMoney]

Dylan Klebold

I attended a fantastic LEO forum in 2011 about Columbine;  Harris was your run-of-the-mill follower, but the real sicko was Kelbold;  general consensus was, if Kelbold didn't do what he did, he would've done something else somewhere along the line.  If there was ever a profile for a budding serial killer, it was him.  He was definitely going to kill a lot of people sometime in his life: if not then, later on.

[Martinus]

I gotta admit, I'm morbidly curious as to what motivates someone like this. I know there is never going to be a good answer, of course. Sadism? Desire for notoriety? Profound mental illness and delusions? Some of all of the above?

I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of about admitting that - I think for 99% of the people in this thread or outside of it, this is the primary motivation for taking interest in stories like this, whether they realize this or not. The part about this story that attracts our attention is not the death toll (people, including children, die all the time in much greater numbers without anyone taking notice) but the sheer incomprehensiveness of this. That's why we want to learn more because we hope we will understand and this will deal with the fear and anxiety we feel.

[Kleves]

So now it looks like he did use the rifle in the killings (exclusively?) and his mother didn't work at the school.

NEWTOWN, Conn. — The gunman in the Connecticut shooting rampage committed suicide as first responders closed in, the state's governor said Sunday, raising the specter that Adam Lanza had planned an even more gruesome massacre and was stopped short.

Lanza blasted his way into the building and used a high-powered rifle to kill 20 children and six adults, including the principal who tried to stop him, authorities said.

As President Barack Obama prepared a visit and churches opened their doors to comfort a grieving town Sunday, federal agents fanned out to dozens of gun stores and shooting ranges across Connecticut, chasing leads they hoped would cast light on Lanza's life.

Among the questions: Why did his mother, a well-to-do suburban divorcee, keep a cache of high-powered weapons in the house? What experience did Lanza have with those guns? And, above all, what set him on a path to go classroom-by-classroom, massacring 6- and 7-year-olds?

Speaking on ABC's "This Week," Gov. Dannel Malloy said Lanza shot himself as police entered the building.

"We surmise that it was during the second classroom episode that he heard responders coming and apparently at that, decided to take his own life," Malloy said.

Malloy offered no possible motive for the shooting and a law enforcement official has said police have found no letters or diaries left behind that could shed light on it.

Lanza shot his mother, Nancy Lanza, to death at the home they shared Friday, then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School in her car with at least three of her guns, forced his way in by breaking a window and opened fire, authorities said. Within minutes, he killed the children, six adults and himself.

All the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined.

All six adults killed at the school were women. Of the 20 children, eight were boys and 12 were girls.

Asked whether the children suffered, Carver said, "If so, not for very long." Asked how many bullets were fired, Carver said, "I'm lucky if I can tell you how many I found."

Parents identified the children through photos to spare them some shock, Carver said.

The terrible details about the last moments of young innocents emerged as authorities released their names and ages — the youngest 6 and 7, the oldest 56. They included Ana Marquez-Greene, a little girl who had just moved to Newtown from Canada; Victoria Soto, a 27-year-old teacher who apparently died while trying to hide her pupils; and principal Dawn Hochsprung, who authorities said lunged at the gunman in an attempt to overtake him.

The tragedy has plunged Newtown into mourning and added the picturesque New England community of 27,000 people to the grim map of towns where mass shootings in recent years have periodically reignited the national debate over gun control but led to little change.

School officials were trying to determine what to do about sending the survivors back to class, Newtown police Lt. George Sinko said at a news conference Sunday.

Sinko said he "would find it very difficult" for students to return to the school. But, he added, "we want to keep these kids together. They need to support each other," he said.

Plans were being made for some students to attend classes in nearby Monroe, said Jim Agostine, superintendent of schools there.

Residents and faith leaders reflected Sunday on the mass shooting and what meaning, if any, to find in it. Obama planned to attend an interfaith vigil — the fourth time he will have traveled to a city after a mass shooting.

Related: Obama to speak at vigil for Conn. shooting victims

At Saint Rose of Lima Roman Catholic church, Jennifer Waters, who at 6 is the same age as many of the victims and attends a different school, came to Mass on Sunday in Newtown with a lot of questions.

"The little children — are they with the angels?" she asked her mother while fiddling with a small plastic figurine on a pew near the back of the church. "Are they going to live with the angels?"

Her mother, Joan, 45, assured her they were, then put a finger to her daughter's lips, urging her to be quiet.

An overflow crowd of more than 800 people attended the 9 a.m. service at the church, where eight children will be buried later this week. The gunman, Adam Lanza, and his mother also attended church here. Spokesman Brian Wallace said the diocese has yet to be asked to provide funerals for either.

Boxes of tissues were placed strategically in each pew and on each window sill. The altar was adorned with bouquets, one shaped as a broken heart, with a zigzag of red carnations cutting through the white ones.

In his homily, the Rev. Jerald Doyle, the diocesan administrator, tried to answer the question of how parishioners could find joy in the holiday season with so much sorrow surrounding them.

"You won't remember what I say, and it will become unimportant," he said. "But you will really hear deep down that word that will finally and ultimately bring peace and joy. That is the word by which we live. That is the word by which we hope. That is the word by which we love."

After the Mass, Joan and Jennifer stopped by a makeshift memorial outside the church, which was filled with votive candles and had a pile of bouquets and stuffed animals underneath, to pray the Lord's Prayer.

Jennifer asked whether she could take one.

"No, those are for the little children," her mother replied.

"Who died?" her daughter asked.

"Yes," said her mother, wiping away a tear.

Amid the confusion and sorrow, stories of heroism emerged, including an account of Hochsprung, 47, and the school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, 56, rushing toward Lanza in an attempt to stop him. Both died.

There was also 27-year-old teacher Victoria Soto, whose name has been invoked as a portrait of selflessness. Investigators told relatives she was killed while shielding her first-graders from danger. She reportedly hid some students in a bathroom or closet, ensuring they were safe, a cousin, Jim Wiltsie, told ABC News.

"She put those children first. That's all she ever talked about," a friend, Andrea Crowell, told The Associated Press. "She wanted to do her best for them, to teach them something new every day."

There was also 6-year-old Emilie Parker, whose grieving father, Robbie, talked to reporters not long after police released the names of the victims but expressed no animosity, offering sympathy for Lanza's family.

"I can't imagine how hard this experience must be for you," he said.

The gunman's father, Peter Lanza, issued a statement relating his own family's anguish in the aftermath.

"Our family is grieving along with all those who have been affected by this enormous tragedy. No words can truly express how heartbroken we are," he said. "We are in a state of disbelief and trying to find whatever answers we can. We too are asking why. ... Like so many of you, we are saddened, but struggling to make sense of what has transpired."

The rifle used was a Bushmaster .223-caliber, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation who was not authorized to speak about it and talked on condition of anonymity. The gun is commonly seen at competitions and was the type used in the 2002 sniper killings in the Washington, D.C., area. Also found in the school were two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm.

A law enforcement official said Saturday that authorities were investigating fresh leads that could reveal more about the lead-up to the shooting. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

Ginger Colbrun, spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said earlier there was no evidence Lanza was involved in gun clubs or had trained for the shooting. When reached later in the day and asked whether that was still true, she said, "We're following any and all leads related to this individual and firearms."

Law enforcement officials have said they have found no note or manifesto from Lanza of the sort they have come to expect after murderous rampages such as the Virginia Tech bloodbath in 2007 that left 33 people dead.

Education officials said they had found no link between Lanza's mother and the school, contrary to news reports that said she was a teacher there. Investigators said they believe Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook many years ago, but they had no explanation for why he went there Friday.

Authorities said Adam Lanza had no criminal history, and it was not clear whether he had a job. Lanza was believed to have suffered from a personality disorder, said a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Another law enforcement official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said Lanza also had been diagnosed with Asperger's, a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.

People with the disorder are often highly intelligent. While they can become frustrated more easily, there is no evidence of a link between Asperger's and violent behavior, experts say.

The law enforcement officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the unfolding investigation.

Richard Novia, the school district's head of security until 2008, who also served as adviser for the high school technology club, of which Lanza was a member, said he clearly "had some disabilities."

"If that boy would've burned himself, he would not have known it or felt it physically," Novia said in a phone interview. "It was my job to pay close attention to that."

[OttoVonBismarck]

I attended a fantastic LEO forum in 2011 about Columbine;  Harris was your run-of-the-mill follower, but the real sicko was Kelbold;  general consensus was, if Kelbold didn't do what he did, he would've done something else somewhere along the line.  If there was ever a profile for a budding serial killer, it was him.  He was definitely going to kill a lot of people sometime in his life: if not then, later on.

I've never read as much about Harris, I think maybe there is not as much available on him because he didn't keep so many writings. Klebold wrote a ton of shit. I hadn't thought of him in comparison to a "normal" serial killer (as opposed to a spree killer) before,  but his rage against humanity collectively is definitely something I've heard a lot of serial killers either express or people who have studied them have noted.

Whatever makes someone become suicidal, and in Klebold's case it really does seem like a true mystery, Klebold's definitely manifested in a very strange way. All that self-loathing and misery is pretty run of the mill for someone getting ready to off themselves, but then the outward directed rage is where if anyone had read his stuff before he acted you'd think it would have set off massive warning bells.

I remember before I knew a lot about Klebold I assumed his parents either abused him, he was bullied a lot, and/or his parents were just bad parents. But none of those things really appears to be true, at least that I've ever seen. It's like around mid-junior high, he want from being athletic, outgoing, lots of friends, to being shy and quiet. He was a gifted kid academically and then went to being very average grade wise, as if he had lost all interest in school.

I've seen interviews with his mom, and read an essay she wrote, according to her both her and her husband knew sometime early High School he was no longer happy in school. But they said they did talk to him about it, encourage him, try to get him to open up etc and while they felt he remained somewhat unhappy according to them it wasn't nearly so bad that they thought he had any serious problems. When him and Harris broke into a van, they became convinced that those two weren't a good influence on each other and they were not allowed to see each other for a long time afterward. According to her, once they lifted that restriction it seemed that Dylan himself chose to disassociate with Harris of his own accord. They even said that was encouraging to them as a sign that maybe Dylan was turning a corner.

They thought in his senior year he might have some angst about going away to college, and talked about it with him a good bit (he had been accepted at U. of Arizona), but he seemed genuinely interested in going away versus staying at home. When addressing the trenchcoat killer story Dylan wrote, his mother mentioned that she and her husband went in for a parent teacher conference where the teacher who read the writing was present. That teacher did not tell them what the writing was about, only that it was "disturbed" and "alarming." His parents asked if they could read it, and the teacher said she wanted to talk with a colleague about it to ascertain whether they thought it was a serious matter or maybe just a student writing inappropriate fiction, and once they had decided they'd contact the parents to let them know if they thought it a good idea to give the writing to them to read. They never heard from that teacher again, and she said that she assumed they decided the writing wasn't so serious...she was pretty upset (obviously) when she found out what the writing actually contained. (By and large Klebold's parents did not have any access to any of Dylan's writings until about six months after the shooting, when local law enforcement released those writings to them.)

If you believe the Klebold's in their description of Dylan's life, I think it's obvious he was an unhappy kid but nothing that would make me (and my daughter isn't that age yet) as a parent think "we need to get this kid professional help, this kid needs immediate intervention etc." They did try talking to him, and he was communicative and usually was able to explain himself to them in a way that kept them from thinking there was a truly serious problem afoot.

[CountDeMoney]

(he had been accepted at U. of Arizona),

A clue!

If you believe the Klebold's in their description of Dylan's life, I think it's obvious he was an unhappy kid but nothing that would make me (and my daughter isn't that age yet) as a parent think "we need to get this kid professional help, this kid needs immediate intervention etc." They did try talking to him, and he was communicative and usually was able to explain himself to them in a way that kept them from thinking there was a truly serious problem afoot.

Yeah, he knew what he was doing with his parents to keep them off his trail, as they would be his biggest obstacle to anything he wanted to accomplish.  He was as manipulative with them as he was with Harris, knowing exactly what he was doing with those individuals around him.  A true sociopath.

[katmai]

Seedy you sound jealous.

[CountDeMoney]

I failed at sociopathy.