Toronto woman denied haircut files human rights complaint

[crazy canuck]

In Sweden you cut your hair at a unisex place unless you're a weird old dude.

Yeah, same here but there are a few "barber shops" still around.  Its a cheap alternative.

[Barrister]

In Sweden you cut your hair at a unisex place unless you're a weird old dude.

Yeah, same here but there are a few "barber shops" still around.  Its a cheap alternative.

I switched to barber shops 8 years ago.  I've been to several since, and each and every one had nobody working who was under the age of 65.

But they do a good cut (better than some unisex places) and charge less, so its win-win.

[crazy canuck]

In Sweden you cut your hair at a unisex place unless you're a weird old dude.

Yeah, same here but there are a few "barber shops" still around.  Its a cheap alternative.

I switched to barber shops 8 years ago.  I've been to several since, and each and every one had nobody working who was under the age of 65.

But they do a good cut (better than some unisex places) and charge less, so its win-win.

I think you just proved Brain's point.

[The Brain]

[viper37]

Viper - the JHs and Mormons faced decades of serious discrimination before they were somewhat recognized.

Actually, I think it's still a doctor's call for minors.  And I wouldn't call that "serious discrimination".

Taliban-style Islam is not recognized as legitimate in Canada.

But there's no difference with other religions.

You need to perhaps change it to "you can invent new religious practices, but it'll take decades or centuries before they're respected".

Still does not make a difference. Where do yo draw the line at what is acceptable practice or not for another cultural group?

If a Quebec business refused to cut hair to english speakers, would you find it acceptable?

[mongers]

I don't have enough hair to bother with nowadays, so I do it myself, no.6 all over then a no.4 on top/to tidy it up. 

[derspiess]

I have my wife use the clippers to cut mine-- usually a 3 or 4 all around.

[viper37]

Haircutting is slightly different from just buying stuff. 

not really, no.

In any event, there is a functional reason why men's and women's haircutting is usually seperate having nothing whatever to do with religious taboos - that being that men and women tend, in general, to prefer different styles and procedures.

The girl wants a dude's haircut...  I find it ugly, but if that's what she wants, why not?  There are women dressing as men and men dressing as women...  Hey, weren't the CAF forced to pay and indemnity to a transvestite who was refused?

I could say that for obvious reasons, there are men's only fashion stores and women's only fashion store.  Yet, who would forbid a men to buy women's clothing?

this is Canada, not Saudi Arabia.

Given that the two are in fact widely seperated (though of course there also exist "unisex" salons), it simply doesn't appear to be as huge human rights issue that some Muslim dudes did not want to cut this chick's hair.

This is where we are in agreement

As a matter of principle, sure, they should not turn women away. But the barber shop I go to (with a non-Muslim barber) has never, far as I know, had a woman want to have her hair cut there (though no doubt they would serve one who wanted a man's cut). Given that background seems a trivial non-issue.

Most women would not want to have their cut at a barber shop.  But if they wanted a man's cut they felt a traditional beauty salon could not provide, they could go there.

This is different from restaurants, etc. A woman, Jew or Black may want to eat at one, and there is no real functional reason (well, aside from that kosher thing) to keep 'em seperate.

Well, I don't know of any men who shops for make up, but imagine the kind of world we would have had if men couldn't shop for make up?  No Boy George no 80s glam rock band... Well, ok, bad example   but still, if some man wants a woman's hair cut, why not?

[dps]

Viper - the JHs and Mormons faced decades of serious discrimination before they were somewhat recognized.

Actually, I think it's still a doctor's call for minors.  And I wouldn't call that "serious discrimination".

There was a lot of violence directed against Mormons in their early days--Joseph Smith himself was killed by a lynch mob.  And the governor of Missouri issued an order expelling them from the state.  I'd call that "serious discrimination" right there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "doctor's call for minors" in this context, unless you're suggesting that doctors in Canada have the right to hang underage Mormons or expell them from the province.

As for the woman being refused a haircut, another reason that blacks being refused service in restaurants and other public accomodations before the Civil Rights Act isn't a good analogy is that in many US communities, there weren't any eating establishments that would serve blacks.  I find it difficult to believe that there likewise aren't any other places in Toronto would cut this woman's hair.

[Barrister]

Viper - the JHs and Mormons faced decades of serious discrimination before they were somewhat recognized.

Actually, I think it's still a doctor's call for minors.  And I wouldn't call that "serious discrimination".

There was a lot of violence directed against Mormons in their early days--Joseph Smith himself was killed by a lynch mob.  And the governor of Missouri issued an order expelling them from the state.  I'd call that "serious discrimination" right there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "doctor's call for minors" in this context, unless you're suggesting that doctors in Canada have the right to hang underage Mormons or expell them from the province.

re: "doctors call"

Witnesses prohibit a lot of medical procedures, including blood transfusions.  Courts have said when it comes to young children they will step in to ensure children of witnesses get proper medical procedures even if the parents try and prevent it.

And yes - lots of these fringe groups faced very explicit discrimination and abuse earlier in history before they were somewhat accepted.

[dps]

re: "doctors call"

Witnesses prohibit a lot of medical procedures, including blood transfusions.  Courts have said when it comes to young children they will step in to ensure children of witnesses get proper medical procedures even if the parents try and prevent it.

Ah, I wasn't even thinking about Jehovah's Witnesses, just the Mormons.  AFAIK, the Mormons don't have any a bunch of prohibitions about medical procedures like that.

[Malthus]

it simply doesn't appear to be as huge human rights issue that some Muslim dudes did not want to cut this chick's hair.

I think you are slicing it a bit thin there.  Discrimination is prohibited in relation to any service provided to the public.

Meh, sure it's a violation. My point is that, given that the industry is in practice widely segregated by sex for purely functional reasons, it doesn't appear to be much of a violation.

Your "functional" reason does not apply in this case.  She has short hair.  Why shouldnt she have access to a cheap haircut?  Especially since the reason for denying her is in no way functional but simply that they dont want to serve any females.

You are missing my point. I'm not saying that these guys are refusing her service for a functional reason. I'm also not saying refusal of service isn't a violation. I'm saying that, other than a purely symbolic matter, it isn't a big deal, as it is widely accepted that, practically speaking, haircutting is commonly sex-segregated in some establishments (and others not) . While I fully agree that in theory a woman has the right to demand service from a men-only barber shop and a man to demand service from a hairdressing salon, in practice it isn't a particularly significant right. 

There are real issues in which people are deprived of meaningful rights to get excited about. I'm simply pointing out that, in my opinion and given the context, this isn't one of them.

Mind you, it will no doubt have the benefit of keeping some lawyers in gainful employment, so it has that going for it. 

[Malthus]

Well, I don't know of any men who shops for make up, but imagine the kind of world we would have had if men couldn't shop for make up?  No Boy George no 80s glam rock band... Well, ok, bad example   but still, if some man wants a woman's hair cut, why not?

I don't have a problem with that, and I'm sure they could find a place that would do it. However, I'd not get all upset if some women's salon person didn't want to give a 300 pound trucker dude a bikini wax.

[mongers]

Hm I often take issue with radicals and islamists taking offence, but I'm not getting the outrage over this case; they're religiously forbidden from putting their hands in other women's hair, so only cut mens hair, they're the only loser, missing out on a potential doubling of their income.
No doubt in a generation a new bread of trendy Muslim hairdresser will 'evolve' and run unisex establishments.

Similarly Sikhs are allowed to not wear a motorcycle helmet, because it's an article of their faith and it doesn't detract from other peoples rights, the only ones effected are their own increased mortality rates and risk of serious injury in a crash. 

[Iormlund]

Except you can't just invent a religious practice.

Of course not.