Hamas military chief Ahmed Jabari killed by Israeli strike

[citizen k]

Of course this applies to all of them.

Indeed, Arafat, Gerry Adams, George Washington... all of them.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

So there's a cease-fire now.  Of course, since everybody's likening this to the October 2008 incident, that may not mean much- IIRC, the first cease-fire in that case lasted less than 48 hours before Hamas started shooting again.

apparently the alarms went of and missiles were sent Against Ashdod and Gan Yavne and surroundings... according to someone who lives there.

[jimmy olsen]

Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.

If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.

[Razgovory]

Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.

If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.

  Jews have been forced to live in Ghettos for several hundred years.

[Valmy]

  Jews have been forced to live in Ghettos for several hundred years.

Yeah that one had me

[Viking]

Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.

If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.

That doesn't explain the Hebron and Jerusalem Pogroms in the 1920s, the Great Arab Revolt and it's Pogroms in the 1930s or the Farhud in Iraq and the total ethnic cleansing of jews from east jerusalem and the west bank in the 1940s as well as the de-jewification of the arab world in the 1950s.

Naturally this misses the main point, which is that the deliberate murder of civilians by means of suicide bombing began when there were few, if any, travel restrictions between the occupied territories and israel proper.

[Viking]

Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.

If the Jews were penned in a Warsaw ghetto for 60+ years I think they would have radicalized just a wee bit.

  Jews have been forced to live in Ghettos for several hundred years.

Jews initially choose to live in Ghettos to keep their religion and traditions pure. In liberal western countries where jews were choosing to integrate Ghettos disappeared. The Warsaw Ghetto was not a traditional Ghetto. It was a concentration camp located on the site and using the buildings of the Warsaw Ghetto. This is an important distinction to remember.

[Legbiter]

Such a minor cull of Hamas won't last beyond next week. I suppose Israel got some good data testing their Iron Dome system, but beyond that, meh. The last Lebanon and Cast Lead Gaza wars cost Israel it's strategic alliance with Turkey and this last Bibi escapade almost sheared Egypt away from it's sullen neutrality.

Maybe Hamas will tiptoe with the missile attacks for a few months afterwards which might help Bibi with the re-election.

[Neil]

So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade.  It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.

[Malthus]

Such a minor cull of Hamas won't last beyond next week. I suppose Israel got some good data testing their Iron Dome system, but beyond that, meh. The last Lebanon and Cast Lead Gaza wars cost Israel it's strategic alliance with Turkey and this last Bibi escapade almost sheared Egypt away from it's sullen neutrality.

Maybe Hamas will tiptoe with the missile attacks for a few months afterwards which might help Bibi with the re-election.

Disagree on the first - it wasn't Israeli beating up on Gaza that cost Israel its relations with the Turks, but a rather more serious issue - namely, the discovery of huge natural gas reserves in the Med. which both Israel and Turkey are scrambling to control. Turkish "outrage" is real enough but the government is using that as a pretext to gain leverage in its ongoing attempt to oust the Israelis from what they considef their part of the Med (Israel recently signed a defence - and gas exploration - deal with the "Greek" part of Cyprus, much to Turkish outrage).

As is so often the case in the ME, there is the "public" reasons for stuff happening, and then there is the byzantine politics of self-interest that mostly happens behind the scenes. The Turks discovered a burning care for the fate of Palestinians at exactly the moment that they discovered they were in a competition with Israel for resources. 

[Legbiter]

So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade.  It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.

Arabs always do this. The more crushing their defeat, the more the idiots celebrate victory.

[Ed Anger]

So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade.  It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.

Those are getting thier 72 virgins. Star Trek and star wars nerds, paradox forum users and bronies.

Enjoy Hamas leaders!

[Legbiter]

Disagree on the first - it wasn't Israeli beating up on Gaza that cost Israel its relations with the Turks, but a rather more serious issue - namely, the discovery of huge natural gas reserves in the Med. which both Israel and Turkey are scrambling to control. Turkish "outrage" is real enough but the government is using that as a pretext to gain leverage in its ongoing attempt to oust the Israelis from what they considef their part of the Med (Israel recently signed a defence - and gas exploration - deal with the "Greek" part of Cyprus, much to Turkish outrage).

As is so often the case in the ME, there is the "public" reasons for stuff happening, and then there is the byzantine politics of self-interest that mostly happens behind the scenes. The Turks discovered a burning care for the fate of Palestinians at exactly the moment that they discovered they were in a competition with Israel for resources.

Never seen that angle represented anywhere in my readings. Interesting.

[Viking]

So, it seems that the Palestinians are holding a victory parade.  It's nice to know that some of their guys won't be at the trophy ceremony.

Those are getting thier 72 virgins. Star Trek and star wars nerds, paradox forum users and bronies.

Enjoy Hamas leaders!

And as Hitchens pointed out, 72 Mothers in Law.

[Malthus]

Never seen that angle represented anywhere in my readings. Interesting.

Here's some more info on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus%E2%80%93Israel_relations#Energy_and_natural_gas

Really, the two went hand-in-hand: the Turks used the "flotilla" incident to increase naval presence in that part of the Med. containing the natural gas prize.

In short, without the spur of energy (in this case, the Leviathan gas field), Turkish-Israeli relations would not have been irrepairably damaged by Palestinian shennanigans - as it is, relations cannot impove until the two countries work out who will control Cyprus and the natural gas prize. Right now, Israel has the edge in that, and the Turks are seriously angry about it - they invaded Cyprus fair and square and feel *they* should get the rewards.