Hamas military chief Ahmed Jabari killed by Israeli strike

[Valmy]

In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes.  You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale.  Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.

I don't know.  I mean I am not there being a Palestinian but it seems crazy to keep poking the bear like that.

[dps]

I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.

That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.

I think that he's just being sarcastic with you now.  I think his original meaning was that the one side that could stop the conflict was the Palestinians, by actually accepting Isreal's right to exist and arriving at a reasonable agreement as to borders and the like.

[Fate]

In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes.  You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale.  Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.

I don't know.  I mean I am not there being a Palestinian but it seems crazy to keep poking the bear like that.

If you don't want the current fences to become the de jure ones, then continuing this low level conflict seems like the best way to keep your claim alive in the international public's view. I think it's quite sane.

[Neil]

Lets say, you are locked in a tight urban area surrounded by enemies who are at best blithely callous of your fate and at worst plotting genocide against you. Do you send commandos through the tunnels or sewers to murder their civilians as your only means of resistance? Well, I know what the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto didn't do. They didn't even try to kill any of the German civilians, often the wives and children of the SS men getting ready to send them to Auschwitz.

Wait, are you for or against that?  Because the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were annihilated.

Lets say, you are heavily outnumbered by a more technologically advanced foe with modern army leadership equipped with some of the best planes and tanks in the world and you are only equipped with home made bombs and small arms. Do you refuse to negotiate and kill any and all enemy civilians you can find? Do you permit murderous terror groups to operate freely? Well, I know the Jews in the 1947 war were outnumbered by Arab state armies equipped with Spitfires and Shermans equipped only with light arms. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.

I guess it depends on which method you think will get you a better deal.

[Viking]

In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes.  You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale.  Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.

.. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.

And then made him their leader? That's one strong condemnation of terrorism. 

Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.

Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.

[Fate]

In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes.  You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale.  Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.

.. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.

And then made him their leader? That's one strong condemnation of terrorism. 

Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.

Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.

Terrorists shouldn't be allowed in government. There was no shortage of honorable men in Israel who didn't engage in murder.

[Viking]

I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.

That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.

Why is it stupid?

The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.

Ethnic cleansing and genocide is many things, among those things that they are is being stupid. I think that is an assertion that I can make without needing to justify it.

Merely stopping following the HAMAS (remember its an acronym) line is not enough. There is still the problem of resolving the status of the palestinian and jewish refugees (since the UN fucked that up for us generations ago). Merely stopping shooting is not going to end or resolve anything. Both sides need to come to an agreement.

[Viking]

In some macabre way, terrorism is understandable when you're in Palestinian shoes.  You don't have the military to fight Israel, so if you're forced to fight it, you have to resort to such means to sap its morale.  Morality and ethics is the luxury of the haves.

I don't know.  I mean I am not there being a Palestinian but it seems crazy to keep poking the bear like that.

The thing is that political leaders and aspiring political leaders in Palestinian society gain legitimacy by performing resistance. To stay in power any leader needs to do some resisting because that is what society itself expects of him. If he doesn't he gets "primary'ed" from the right by HAMAS or Islamic Jihad or some other group of anti-semitic sociopathic murderous scum.

[Viking]

Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.

Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.

Terrorists shouldn't be allowed in government. There was no shortage of honorable men in Israel who didn't engage in murder.

Well, yes, obviously he wasn't a reformed chap and proved it by not making peace with Egypt right? Now, pray, why this doesn't apply to Arafat or Mashaal or Nasrallah or Abbas or ... well I could go on for a while sticking within the arab world.

[Viking]

Lets say, you are locked in a tight urban area surrounded by enemies who are at best blithely callous of your fate and at worst plotting genocide against you. Do you send commandos through the tunnels or sewers to murder their civilians as your only means of resistance? Well, I know what the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto didn't do. They didn't even try to kill any of the German civilians, often the wives and children of the SS men getting ready to send them to Auschwitz.

Wait, are you for or against that?  Because the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were annihilated.

Yes, they were. But that is besides the point. DGuller claimed it was inevitable that murder of civilians must be done by those facing desperate conditions. I merely showed that in the same time period, facing much worse odds and much more evil opponents drawn from the same ethnic and cultural group as the zionists of 1947 the jews choose not to murder civilians like the palestinians do. The palestinians still have a moral choice to make regardless of how hopeless their military situation might be.

Lets say, you are heavily outnumbered by a more technologically advanced foe with modern army leadership equipped with some of the best planes and tanks in the world and you are only equipped with home made bombs and small arms. Do you refuse to negotiate and kill any and all enemy civilians you can find? Do you permit murderous terror groups to operate freely? Well, I know the Jews in the 1947 war were outnumbered by Arab state armies equipped with Spitfires and Shermans equipped only with light arms. The Jews arrested terrorist leaders like Menachim Begin and disarmed groups like the Irgun and Stern Gang who did carry out murders of civilians.

I guess it depends on which method you think will get you a better deal.

I suggest that the jews got a better deal in 1948 than HAMAS got in 2009.

[Grey Fox]

I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.

That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.

Why is it stupid?

The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.

Ethnic cleansing and genocide is many things, among those things that they are is being stupid. I think that is an assertion that I can make without needing to justify it.

Merely stopping following the HAMAS (remember its an acronym) line is not enough. There is still the problem of resolving the status of the palestinian and jewish refugees (since the UN fucked that up for us generations ago). Merely stopping shooting is not going to end or resolve anything. Both sides need to come to an agreement.

It depends on who you ask tho. I don't think Nazis leaders thought their final solution was stupid.

It's an acronym? Didn't know that.

I think I need to clarify my points.

The status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.

I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.

I used to be more pro-palestinians but Languish has made me hard. Muslims are idiots.

[Fate]

Yes, after 30 years of peaceful democratic behavior. The thing is they did arrest him and disarm his group. Then, after playing fair in the rules of democracy for 30 years he got elected.

Please, tell me, how should reformed terrorists behave? Being an active terrorist seems to be the pre-requisite for office among the Palestinians. One would think that voting for Abbas would mean an endorsement of holocaust denial given that was what he doctoral thesis claimed.

Terrorists shouldn't be allowed in government. There was no shortage of honorable men in Israel who didn't engage in murder.

Well, yes, obviously he wasn't a reformed chap and proved it by not making peace with Egypt right? Now, pray, why this doesn't apply to Arafat or Mashaal or Nasrallah or Abbas or ... well I could go on for a while sticking within the arab world.

Of course this applies to all of them.

A murderer who signs a peace accord is no less a murderer. The fact that Begin was elected to the highest level of government reflects poorly on the people who put him in office.

[Fate]

I'm suggesting that Isreal drive the Palestinians to the Sea.

That's just immoral and stupid. I thought you were joking.

Why is it stupid?

The Palestinians could also get a clue & stop following Hamas line of conduct but that is asking too much out of Muslims.

Ethnic cleansing and genocide is many things, among those things that they are is being stupid. I think that is an assertion that I can make without needing to justify it.

Merely stopping following the HAMAS (remember its an acronym) line is not enough. There is still the problem of resolving the status of the palestinian and jewish refugees (since the UN fucked that up for us generations ago). Merely stopping shooting is not going to end or resolve anything. Both sides need to come to an agreement.

It depends on who you ask tho. I don't think Nazis leaders thought their final solution was stupid.

It's an acronym? Didn't know that.

I think I need to clarify my points.

The status quo cannot remain any longer( and for about 20 years now too). They cannot live as neighbors nor can they live together. One of them has to leave. The Jews are not going to, they don't have anywhere else to go. The Palestinians do, it surrounds Israel from all sides.

I don't advocate that Israel kills them per se, I have no horse in the matter. Only the end game of peace matters.

I used to be more pro-palestinians but Languish has made me hard. Muslims are idiots.

I see no reason why this current tit for tat cannot continue for another 50 years. Neither side seems tired. Every week brings new reasons to be enraged and replenishes the reservoir of national resolve.

[Valmy]

I see no reason why this current tit for tat cannot continue for another 50 years. Neither side seems tired. Every week brings new reasons to be enraged and replenishes the reservoir of national resolve.

And more to the point neither side has a choice.  The Israelis I have talked to have basically decided there is no alternative than continuing like this indefinitely.

[Valmy]

Of course this applies to all of them.

A murderer who signs a peace accord is no less a murderer. The fact that Begin was elected to the highest level of government reflects poorly on the people who put him in office.

Does this apply to Nelson Mandela and South Africa?