Peter Pan Syndrome and Sexual Economics

[MadImmortalMan]

Or perhaps women are more than biological machines and think with their brains and figure out they will be better of (especially if they themselves are successful professionals) with a hotter younger guy even if he is not bring tons of money home, than with a richer alpha who spends all his days and evenings at work and usually has some serious psychological issues.

Most of my female friends seem to be following that pattern.

In that situation, which one is actually an alpha male? Not the one who didn't get the girl.

[MadImmortalMan]

What you are forgetting is that these days, it isn't actually necessary to hang out in coffee shops or bars all day to meet women. I'm not a big fan of it, but the fact is that people advertise for sex and relationships in a straightforward manner - they advertise on Internet dating sites.

Even a busy professional can do that.

For women, the man-child types who have no responsibilities are not that attractive. It has nothing to do with women being grasping harpies out for a meal ticket, or the rest of the usual woman-hater's screed. It is simply that such guys tend to come with a lot of unattractive personality characteristics - not to mention the inconveniences involved with dating someone who can't pay their own way. A guy who has no intention of working is usually one who is shamelessly living off of someone else, for one; for another, they are far more likely to be drunks or druggies (pot is bad for this) or have psychological issues.

All things being equal of course. If your frisbee playing man-child is 23 and looks like a male model, bets are off.

Well yeah, but like Brazen said, the money isn't entering into it for the ladies anymore. They have their own and can support themselves. So the guys are turning to other ways to attract them. Like P90X and stuff I guess.

For the same reason guys don't particularly care how educated or rich a woman is, women have become the same with guys.

[Drakken]

What you are forgetting is that these days, it isn't actually necessary to hang out in coffee shops or bars all day to meet women. I'm not a big fan of it, but the fact is that people advertise for sex and relationships in a straightforward manner - they advertise on Internet dating sites.

Even a busy professional can do that.

The problem with internet dating sites is that it skews people's own perception of their dating value, and creates unrealistic expectations in other partners. What you get, basically, is a Powerpoint presentation - no vibe, no eye contact, no body language and pheromone, only words on a screen and (usually badly framed) pictures taken out of context.

The dating game being as it is, men tapdance and women do the choosing. Even unattractive and plain women get tons of messages from men of all kinds of mating potential on dating sites because the best strategy for the average man is usually to send shotgun messages and milk any contact who replies back. Consequently, it gives these women the pick of the litter, and the false belief that they can obtain a better partner that they could actually do in real life because the fact that they receive tons of messages validates them as "attractive female".

In any case, if a professional rely solely on dating sites to find partners, it's more because he is either a socially awkward or is too afraid of rejection and "losing his time". People who are serious about finding a partner are ready to take the necessary steps to meet new people in real life, which means going out, being socially active, having fun, speed dating, and so on.

[Sheilbh]

I've done a couple of internet dates.  I find it helps you find people who have some similar interests and you're able to screen out undesirables.  I've been in enough Buddha-laden living rooms in Richmond to know that if a guy talks about 'just being himself', or 'being spiritual' then it'll be a date of biting my tongue and trying to resist the urge to club him with the menorah in the window.  Luckily online those people put that on their profiles and I know not to bite - similarly I'm sure they look at my profile and think I'm not for them.

It could be different for straight people but it's useful for Mark Gatiss gays and the like, because that's not necessarily what you'll get on the scene even if it's still a very good night out

[Valmy]

yeah, but I am not sure what this analysis has to do with that

Reducing it all about trying to get sex.  It seems like I had alot more crap going on with me when I was struggling to grow up besides that.

are you guys really that dense or really that inept with women? 

Of course there is a lot going on.  But if anyone here didnt have a huge sex drive when they were in their late teens early 20s they were outliers.  Pretty simple point.
If you were not thinking about sex as a young man you were indeed an outlier.

I think Valmy's point was that he was thinking about other things, too, not that he wasn't thinking about sex.

And I tend to agree with him.  Sure, when I was in school, I wanted to be able to afford a cool car and stuff, and partly that was because a cool car helps you get chicks, but, still, I wanted the cool car and other cool stuff for its value aside from being a chick magnet.

Ok I have no idea what you are saying because you fucked up the quotes so bad.  BUt one pretty significant issue in getting me to work really hard to be successful was just because I did not want to lose face in front of my peer group.  They were all high achievers, or at least appeared to be at the time, so I had to fit in.  I had no idea really who I was or what I wanted back then and I tended to view myself based on what my friends thought.  That was a big deal and didn't have much to do with sex.

I have no idea where you are getting this idiotic idea I said I did not have a big sex drive.

[Valmy]

The problem with internet dating sites is that it skews people's own perception of their dating value, and creates unrealistic expectations in other partners. What you get, basically, is a Powerpoint presentation - no vibe, no eye contact, no body language and pheromone, only words on a screen and (usually badly framed) pictures taken out of context.

Well right that is why you use it to meet people in person.  But I found it a fast way to get in touch with people who wanted the exact same thing I wanted.  That sort of compatibility is vital, or at lest was for me.

The dating game being as it is, men tapdance and women do the choosing. Even unattractive and plain women get tons of messages from men of all kinds of mating potential on dating sites because the best strategy for the average man is usually to send shotgun messages and milk any contact who replies back. Consequently, it gives these women the pick of the litter, and the false belief that they can obtain a better partner that they could actually do in real life because the fact that they receive tons of messages validates them as "attractive female".

I don't know if that was really true even back when I was doing it back in 2006-2007.  There were at least as many women as men on it by that point.  I certainly got messaged plenty by women.

People who are serious about finding a partner are ready to take the necessary steps to meet new people in real life, which means going out, being socially active, having fun, speed dating, and so on.

True but if you really are serious I would think you would use all your tools.

[Valmy]

Or perhaps women are more than biological machines and think with their brains and figure out they will be better of (especially if they themselves are successful professionals) with a hotter younger guy even if he is not bring tons of money home, than with a richer alpha who spends all his days and evenings at work and usually has some serious psychological issues.

Most of my female friends seem to be following that pattern.

Do people just not choose partners just because they like them?

[Martinus]

Or perhaps women are more than biological machines and think with their brains and figure out they will be better of (especially if they themselves are successful professionals) with a hotter younger guy even if he is not bring tons of money home, than with a richer alpha who spends all his days and evenings at work and usually has some serious psychological issues.

Most of my female friends seem to be following that pattern.

Do people just not choose partners just because they like them?

They like qualities they are attracted to. This changes as you grow older - you like different people now than you liked 15 years ago.

[Martinus]

What you are forgetting is that these days, it isn't actually necessary to hang out in coffee shops or bars all day to meet women. I'm not a big fan of it, but the fact is that people advertise for sex and relationships in a straightforward manner - they advertise on Internet dating sites.

Even a busy professional can do that.

For women, the man-child types who have no responsibilities are not that attractive. It has nothing to do with women being grasping harpies out for a meal ticket, or the rest of the usual woman-hater's screed. It is simply that such guys tend to come with a lot of unattractive personality characteristics - not to mention the inconveniences involved with dating someone who can't pay their own way. A guy who has no intention of working is usually one who is shamelessly living off of someone else, for one; for another, they are far more likely to be drunks or druggies (pot is bad for this) or have psychological issues.

All things being equal of course. If your frisbee playing man-child is 23 and looks like a male model, bets are off.

It's not that women are attracted to man-child types per se. The thing is, we tend to discuss these traits in a sort of "all things being equal" sense, but this is not the case in real life, as people are different and it is very rare that you find two people who are equally into you and who differ by just one characteristic or quality.

I always say this works like GURPS character creation - people usually have various pros and cons. Younger women and/or women who are not financially independent are more attracted to stability - thus older, well off guys are considered more attractive. More financially independent women do not value financial stability as high - so they are more attracted to guys who  may be not as rich, but who usually happen to be more relaxed, have more time for them, and are usually more good looking/younger (again I am not saying that rich guys can't be good looking or relaxed but supply/demand works here as well obviously). Noone ever finds an ideal partner - just a partner with whose faults you can live because they don't bother you. For financially independent women, a guy who is more fun to be around and is hotter is better than a guy who has more money.

I noticed that usually the only thing that prevents this switch is the appearance of children - because this usually prevents the woman in a relationship from becoming financially independent as she stays at home to raise the kids. In such cases the switch happens when the children grow and move out of home. If there are no children present, I don't think I know a single marriage of my two people from my generation (which originally followed the pattern of a woman marrying a stable, financially secure guy) which survived.

[Valmy]

They like qualities they are attracted to. This changes as you grow older - you like different people now than you liked 15 years ago.

I guess.  But only because I have a better idea of who I am and what I want.  But I don't know if liking young hot people is sign of advanced age.

[Martinus]

They like qualities they are attracted to. This changes as you grow older - you like different people now than you liked 15 years ago.

I guess.  But only because I have a better idea of who I am and what I want.  But I don't know if liking young hot people is sign of advanced age.

Are you deliberately obtuse? Everyone likes young hot people. We choose older non-hot people because of certain qualities in them we find attractive. Once this attraction is removed, it's back to cradle robbing.

And I don't think this is a "better idea of who I am" - people change. You are not getting wiser or more reasonable - you just redefine your priorities.

[Martinus]

Incidentally, I find it funny that it's mainly the unattractive guys with stable jobs and younger wives here that are so vehemently arguing that women are not attracted to hot guys. 

Even if the only woman who posted so far disagreed.

[Valmy]

Are you deliberately obtuse?

That was sarcasm Marty.

[Tamas]

Incidentally, I find it funny that it's mainly the unattractive guys with stable jobs and younger wives here that are so vehemently arguing that women are not attracted to hot guys. 

Even if the only woman who posted so far disagreed.

Valmy has a younger wife? 

This thread is a wonderful collection of highly subjective personal viewpoints and broad generalizations from those viewpoints. The discussion itself renders all posts irrelevant including the original article.

[Richard Hakluyt]

"The social trends suggest the continuing influence of a stable fact, namely the strong desire of young men for sexual activity. As the environment has shifted, men have simply adjusted their behavior to find the best means to achieve this same goal."

Homosexuality has to be the way forward here