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The Nobel Peace Prize goes to ...

Started by Zanza, October 12, 2012, 05:13:14 AM

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Syt

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 11:16:37 AM
Damn, even the pinkiest of you Euros are some xenophobic motherfuckers when it comes to Turkey.  Stop the hate.

I can see how people become unfavorably disposed to religious conservative country hicks coming to the big cities in droves. Mind you, if the Turkish immigration to Europe came from Western Turkey or Istanbul there would be hardly any problems.

Imagine Seattle having a 10% share of conservative, traditionalist folks from West Virginia or similar who after two or three generations still don't integrate well, with generation 3 often still struggling with the main language.

In fact, some of the challenges are similar to the Hispanic immigration into the U.S., I guess.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

PDH

Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2012, 12:10:56 PM
In fact, some of the challenges are similar to the Hispanic immigration into the U.S., I guess.

3rd generation Mexican immigrants are almost always monolingual in English here.  (excepting border regions where there is a strong bi-lingual emphasis)

I can't think of any immigrant group since the 19th century that hasn't become English-only speakers by the third generation.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
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-------
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Valmy

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 11:45:52 AM
The EU's not just about finance charges and interest rates;  it's still an organization of nation states with a vested interest in collective security, even before the Berlin conference.

But, since it's not a military organization, it doesn't deserve a peace prize then.  They should endorse the reward check and deposit it to NATO's account to cover the lack of GDP commitment spending most of them still don't meet.

I have been arguing since the late 90s (back when people cared enough about the EU to talk about it alot) that the EU needed to unite Europe's military and diplomacy and be a real military alliance in order to really have legitimacy...well that and be more democratic.  But that would destroy the nation states really.  Which is why the EU will never be a big success as anything but an economic union (and probably not even that) since that will never happen.  And since when do you have to be a military organization to get the Nobel Peace Prize?  Doctors Without Borders cannot exactly project force.

QuoteAh yes, the arms embargo and other associated platitudes.

Yeah ok key events that were primary movers in the way things unfolded are not platitudes.

QuoteDid wonders to stop the shelling of civilians and mass graves.

You know what would have done wonders to stop the shelling of civilians and mass graves?  Guns for the Bosniaks.

QuoteAnd none of them were willing to stand next to Tony Blair, who was the only leader over there that had the balls to say this shit doesn't happen in Europe anymore.

Yeah I guess I missed the massive British intervention.

QuoteFilty Serbs didn't start fucking dying and Europeans wouldn't drop a single bomb until NATO (read: the United States) agreed to come along for the ride.

Well the Croat Army also helped.  Also the Bosniaks did eventually scrounge up enough guns to start fighting back.  But yeah for the most part the EU countries did not do much beyond donating troops to the UN efforts.

QuoteThey have everything to do with it.   I believe the OSCE still prints its own stationery.

The EU lacks the power, authority, and legitimacy to do anything about things like Bosnia and Kosovo.  They are even less able to than the Article of Confederation US government was able to deal with the secession of Vermont.  At least the Congress was supposed to handle things like that, they simply lacked the ability to.  The EU does not even have a mandate.

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2012, 12:10:56 PM
In fact, some of the challenges are similar to the Hispanic immigration into the U.S., I guess.

Not really.  The Hispanics are Westerners with the Western religion and beliefs.  They are just a bit more old school than most Americans and speak and look a little different.  But they integrate just like every other immigrant group.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Valmy on October 12, 2012, 12:20:39 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 11:45:52 AM
Ah yes, the arms embargo and other associated platitudes.

Yeah ok key events that were primary movers in the way things unfolded are not platitudes.

QuoteDid wonders to stop the shelling of civilians and mass graves.

You know what would have done wonders to stop the shelling of civilians and mass graves?  Guns for the Bosniaks.

Which is why I called them platitudes.  Useless.

QuoteThe EU lacks the power, authority, and legitimacy to do anything about things like Bosnia and Kosovo.

They possess as much power, authority and legitimacy as they choose to have.   Which is none, because they're a collection of neutered weenies that can't take care of their own back yard without Uncle Sam kicking them in the ass.  It doesn't have to be that way:  the EU can do more.

The Brain

Quote from: PDH on October 12, 2012, 12:16:45 PM
Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2012, 12:10:56 PM
In fact, some of the challenges are similar to the Hispanic immigration into the U.S., I guess.

3rd generation Mexican immigrants are almost always monolingual in English here.  (excepting border regions where there is a strong bi-lingual emphasis)


Border regions? The Montana border?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Syt

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 12:38:08 PMthe EU can do more.

Unfortunately, its member states are very strongly against ceding additional competencies to Brussels. Many people see the EU as a bureaucratic mess that wastes money and doesn't get anything useful done.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

garbon

Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2012, 12:50:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 12:38:08 PMthe EU can do more.

Unfortunately, its member states are very strongly against ceding additional competencies to Brussels. Many people see the EU as a bureaucratic mess that wastes money and doesn't get anything useful done.

Except apparently - peace.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2012, 12:50:15 PM
Many people see the EU as a bureaucratic mess that wastes money and doesn't get anything useful done.

Unfortunately, that's the view from over here as well.

Valmy

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 12:38:08 PM
Which is why I called them platitudes.  Useless.

That makes no sense.

QuoteThey possess as much power, authority and legitimacy as they choose to have.   Which is none, because they're a collection of neutered weenies that can't take care of their own back yard without Uncle Sam kicking them in the ass.  It doesn't have to be that way:  the EU can do more.

Right the states of Europe went out to create a confederation without any power and then were shocked when this organization was able to achieve little.  Also they were mad that the EU was undemoctratic after they decided to make it undemocratic.  The EU is basically what the US would be if we kept the Articles of Confederation around.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Barrister

Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2012, 12:10:56 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 12, 2012, 11:16:37 AM
Damn, even the pinkiest of you Euros are some xenophobic motherfuckers when it comes to Turkey.  Stop the hate.

I can see how people become unfavorably disposed to religious conservative country hicks coming to the big cities in droves. Mind you, if the Turkish immigration to Europe came from Western Turkey or Istanbul there would be hardly any problems.

Imagine Seattle having a 10% share of conservative, traditionalist folks from West Virginia or similar who after two or three generations still don't integrate well, with generation 3 often still struggling with the main language.

In fact, some of the challenges are similar to the Hispanic immigration into the U.S., I guess.

Except for your example to apply, those third generation west virginians would have to be denied Washington State citizenship, despite being born there...

Canada doesn't get a lot of Turkish immigrants.  But we get a lot of iranian and pakistani immigrants.  And by the third generation they're very well assimilated.  Hell the second generation is well assimilated.
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Cecil

To even mention the A word would brand you racist here.

Valmy

Quote from: Cecil on October 12, 2012, 02:41:57 PM
To even mention the A word would brand you racist here.

Keeping them in a cultural ghetto is far more racist.  Since, you know, one of the ways racism works is you refuse certain groups the ability to assimilate.  How in the world is assimilation racist?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Viking

While The leader of the Norwegian Nobel Comittee Thorbjørn Jagland was the leader of the European Movement (the organisation trying to get norway to vote yes in the referendum about joining in 1994) he called on the EU to get the peace prize; he now was able to give it to them himself.

The man is scum, but he is right about the EU.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

The Brain

Quote from: Valmy on October 12, 2012, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: Cecil on October 12, 2012, 02:41:57 PM
To even mention the A word would brand you racist here.

Keeping them in a cultural ghetto is far more racist.  Since, you know, one of the ways racism works is you refuse certain groups the ability to assimilate.  How in the world is assimilation racist?

THEIR CULTURE IS LOVELY DAMMIT
Women want me. Men want to be with me.