European views on American involvement in the Vietnam war.

[Admiral Yi]

Hmm, Republicans make a habit of tweaking voter turn out, no wonder Yi approves of Diem.

You got it backwards as usual dumbass.

[mongers]

Hmm, Republicans make a habit of tweaking voter turn out, no wonder Yi approves of Diem.

You got it backwards as usual dumbass.

I see you're resorting to insult rather than trying to sustain your somewhat pathetic spin that 'Diem was chosen by his people'; it was a rigged referendum and you knew it when making the post.

[Jacob]

OK.  But does that get you to a US-installed dictator?

It is my understanding that had the US chosen another suitable candidate, that person would've become the dictator; but the US thought that Diem was the most suitable and threw their support behind him.

I think that's close enough, yeah.

A semi-honest question.

Heh... I was hoping all your questions were honest :p

I've heard the same thing said a about Syngman Rhee in South Korea, where the basis of the charge rests on the fact that Rhee was educated in the US and spoke English.

I don't know enough about the situation in Korea to comment specifically about Syngman Rhee. Overall, the way things went in S. Korea and Japan and Germany is very much to the US's credit, IMO. The US started off in a pretty imperialist position, being intimately involved in selecting and maintaining the local government, but moved out of that position fairly quickly all things considered. Today I wouldn't consider S. Korea and Japan clients of the US at all, but allies, though at the close of the Korean War and WWII they were definitely US clients IMO.

Had the US won in Vietnam, maybe Vietnam would've gone the route of S. Korea and Japan. That wouldn't have made the war itself  less imperialistic in my view, but the result could have mitigated that over time.

Certainly, the US record in that regard is much much better than the Soviets' or the British Empire for example.

[Admiral Yi]

I see you're resorting to insult rather than trying to sustain your somewhat pathetic spin that 'Diem was chosen by his people'; it was a rigged referendum and you knew it when making the post.

Wrong again.  I've conceded that Diem was not chosen by the people (although it hasn't exactly been demonstrated that absent the vote rigging someone else would have been elected).  I'm calling you a dumbass for your attempt to Razgavorize the debate and completely botching the comparison to US politics.  It's the Democrats who stuff the ballot box and Republicans who suppress votes.

[Jacob]

I could swear I've answered this twice already. 

Aquisition of colonies.  Subjugation of states.

Would you consider Soviet actions in Eastern Europe and/or Afghanistan to be imperialistic?

[Admiral Yi]

It is my understanding that had the US chosen another suitable candidate, that person would've become the dictator; but the US thought that Diem was the most suitable and threw their support behind him.

I think that's close enough, yeah.

What is this understanding based on?  What levers did the US pull to get "our guy" into office?

I don't know enough about the situation in Korea to comment specifically about Syngman Rhee. Overall, the way things went in S. Korea and Japan and Germany is very much to the US's credit, IMO. The US started off in a pretty imperialist position, being intimately involved in selecting and maintaining the local government, but moved out of that position fairly quickly all things considered. Today I wouldn't consider S. Korea and Japan clients of the US at all, but allies, though at the close of the Korean War and WWII they were definitely US clients IMO.

The US was intimately involved in selecting and maintaining the South Korean government?

[mongers]

I see you're resorting to insult rather than trying to sustain your somewhat pathetic spin that 'Diem was chosen by his people'; it was a rigged referendum and you knew it when making the post.

Wrong again.  I've conceded that Diem was not chosen by the people (although it hasn't exactly been demonstrated that absent the vote rigging someone else would have been elected).  I'm calling you a dumbass for your attempt to Razgavorize the debate and completely botching the comparison to US politics.  It's the Democrats who stuff the ballot box and Republicans who suppress votes.

So who spins as much as you do, or is that you very own speciality ?

[Admiral Yi]

Christ.

[Admiral Yi]

Would you consider Soviet actions in Eastern Europe and/or Afghanistan to be imperialistic?

Eastern Europe definitely.  56 and 68 (and 48 to a certain extent) show that.

Afghanistan is a little grayer.

[garbon]

Christ.

You engaged with mongers.

[Jacob]

What is this understanding based on?  What levers did the US pull to get "our guy" into office?

My impression is that they offered advice, money, arms, and a commitment to stand behind their preferred candidate. That and continued backing for him to keep him in power.

I don't know the specifics, but it seems that various decision makers at the time from Eisenhower onwards considered Diem "our guy".

EDIT: my understanding is based on accumulated reading. I'm not claiming scholarly expertise here.

The US was intimately involved in selecting and maintaining the South Korean government?

In the aftermath of the Korean war? That is my impression, yes, but I'm happy to be educated to the contrary.

[mongers]

Christ.

You engaged with mongers.

Is it any wonder I don't 'engage' with you anymore, what with your 'au contraire' shtick having gotten old some time ago.

[dps]

It is my understanding that had the US chosen another suitable candidate, that person would've become the dictator; but the US thought that Diem was the most suitable and threw their support behind him.

I think that's close enough, yeah.

I think that you're mistaking cause and effect here.  My understanding is that it wasn't that Diem was able to take over because the US backed him and considered him "our guy"--it was more that the US (reluctantly) backed him and came to consider him "our guy" because he was the one that had taken over. 

[Razgovory]

I see you're resorting to insult rather than trying to sustain your somewhat pathetic spin that 'Diem was chosen by his people'; it was a rigged referendum and you knew it when making the post.

Wrong again.  I've conceded that Diem was not chosen by the people (although it hasn't exactly been demonstrated that absent the vote rigging someone else would have been elected).  I'm calling you a dumbass for your attempt to Razgavorize the debate and completely botching the comparison to US politics.  It's the Democrats who stuff the ballot box and Republicans who suppress votes.

And to think, I said nice things about you.

[Ed Anger]

Hey, you became a verb.