The China Thread

[grumbler]

At the risk of exposing my ignorance....why is China screwing over the Ughyurs to begin with? What is the perception of the threat that needs the action being taken?

The Uighurs are viewed as terrorists or at least terrorist supporters by Mainland Chinese. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack

A group of eight knife-wielding terrorists attacked passengers in the Kunming Railway Station in Kunming, Yunnan, China, on 1 March 2014.[2] The attackers pulled out long-bladed knives and stabbed and slashed passengers at random. The assailants killed 31 civilians and injured more than 140 people.

If you don't want to actually answer his question, why bother posting?

Mono lives in a country where the public believes the propaganda.  He buys the excuse so never looks for the cause.

[Jacob]

I like to rag on Mono for being a lackey of evil as much as the next guy, but he is right - the CCP and general Chinese attitude towards the Uighur is coloured by knife attacks and riots. If the question is "why are the Chinese screwing with the Uighur, what is the perception of threat" (and that was the question) part of the answer includes the Chinese reaction to riots and knife attacks.

[garbon]

I like to rag on Mono for being a lackey of evil as much as the next guy, but he is right - the CCP and general Chinese attitude towards the Uighur is coloured by knife attacks and riots. If the question is "why are the Chinese screwing with the Uighur, what is the perception of threat" (and that was the question) part of the answer includes the Chinese reaction to riots and knife attacks.

Except that it is misleading as this didn't start in 2014.

[garbon]

Also, I'm not ragging on him. That implies at least a modicum of affection.

[grumbler]

I like to rag on Mono for being a lackey of evil as much as the next guy, but he is right - the CCP and general Chinese attitude towards the Uighur is coloured by knife attacks and riots. If the question is "why are the Chinese screwing with the Uighur, what is the perception of threat" (and that was the question) part of the answer includes the Chinese reaction to riots and knife attacks.

Certainly part of the justification involves the two knife attacks and some riots, but the crackdown came before the knife attacks.  I believe that the reason China is screwing with the Uighurs is just old-fashioned racism.  Fucking with minorities is what the Chinese do.

[Berkut]

I like to rag on Mono for being a lackey of evil as much as the next guy, but he is right - the CCP and general Chinese attitude towards the Uighur is coloured by knife attacks and riots. If the question is "why are the Chinese screwing with the Uighur, what is the perception of threat" (and that was the question) part of the answer includes the Chinese reaction to riots and knife attacks.

Certainly part of the justification involves the two knife attacks and some riots, but the crackdown came before the knife attacks.  I believe that the reason China is screwing with the Uighurs is just old-fashioned racism.  Fucking with minorities is what the Chinese do.

I know nothing about this, I have to admit.

But this seems an unlikely explanation for why the government of China is screwing with them. I could see that might be why they are not liked, and a convenient scapegoat. But my understanding is the the Chinese government is expending significant resources and taking a lot of negative publicity over their genocidal actions. There has to be a reason beyond "They look funny and have a weird religion" for that. At least, I imagine there needs to be....are there economic factors at play?

Are they actual separatists?

[Monoriu]

I like to rag on Mono for being a lackey of evil as much as the next guy, but he is right - the CCP and general Chinese attitude towards the Uighur is coloured by knife attacks and riots. If the question is "why are the Chinese screwing with the Uighur, what is the perception of threat" (and that was the question) part of the answer includes the Chinese reaction to riots and knife attacks.

Certainly part of the justification involves the two knife attacks and some riots, but the crackdown came before the knife attacks.  I believe that the reason China is screwing with the Uighurs is just old-fashioned racism.  Fucking with minorities is what the Chinese do.

I know nothing about this, I have to admit.

But this seems an unlikely explanation for why the government of China is screwing with them. I could see that might be why they are not liked, and a convenient scapegoat. But my understanding is the the Chinese government is expending significant resources and taking a lot of negative publicity over their genocidal actions. There has to be a reason beyond "They look funny and have a weird religion" for that. At least, I imagine there needs to be....are there economic factors at play?

Are they actual separatists?

Of course.  One of the problems with Uighurs and Tibetans is that religion is involved.  Han Chinese tend to be more materialistic.  They can be bought with material well-being.  Deliver economic growth, jobs, money, GDP, etc, and they'll be loyal to the regime.  Or at least, they'll be indifferent.

Not so with Uighurs and Tibetans.  Han Chinese generally don't have a very strong sense of religion even if they claim to be believers.  Uighurs and Tibetans place their religion above their material needs.  They cannot easily be placated by economic development. 

Hong Kong is similar, except you replace religion with democracy. 

[Jacob]

I know nothing about this, I have to admit.

But this seems an unlikely explanation for why the government of China is screwing with them. I could see that might be why they are not liked, and a convenient scapegoat. But my understanding is the the Chinese government is expending significant resources and taking a lot of negative publicity over their genocidal actions. There has to be a reason beyond "They look funny and have a weird religion" for that. At least, I imagine there needs to be....are there economic factors at play?

Are they actual separatists?

There is definitely a separatist movement among the Uighurs. There is also an element who are unwilling to let their faith be suborned to the requirements of the CCP. There is also a significant segment who feel that the benefits of economical progress have primarily benefitted Han rather than the Uighur and - as I mentioned - a sense that the influx of Han people will make them a minority even in their own traditional areas and/ or lead to assimilation.

There are 55 official minorities in China. The Uighur have - in how they've responded to the above factors - probably been one of the ones more willing to push back against Han hegemony. I think this has led the CCP to push harder - they do not handle dissent well to put it mildly - which has got the Uighurs (or elements within the Uighur at least) to resist more and one thing has led to another.

IMO, while there are some economic elements I think the core is that the CCP are defending their notion of Chinese territorial and ideological integrity. You do not suggest that parts of what they think is China should not be China, and you do not have organizations and people you listen to more than the government (i.e. a strong faith that does not obviously toe the CCP line), and you do not question your place as a happy model minority in the wonderful People's Republic of China where you bring out your quaint ethnic costumes, charming dances, and interesting cuisine but otherwise aren't that different from the Han majority.

[Monoriu]

I think it is interesting to compare say Uighurs and Tibetans.  They are both religiously minded minorities with a high degree of geographic concentration.  Why is there a difference in their treatment?

First and foremost, Uighurs are far more violent. They resort to terrorism against the Han civilian population in other parts of China.  Whereas Tibetans tend to self-immolate.  So there is far greater public support to manage the terrorism issue.

Secondly, Uighurs are Muslims, and there is some Muslim brotherhood issues at play.  The Uighurs are linked to a lot of international Muslim extremist groups, and I am sure that should be familiar to Americans.  Whereas this issue is absent in Tibet. 

Thirdly, a huge chunk of Han Chinese are Buddhists themselves.  Tibetans are sort of more open to outsiders as far as religion is concerned.  They are just much more accommodating.  Whereas the "us vs them" religious dynamic is much stronger in Xinjiang.  Islam has a public perception problem in China, a lot more so than Buddhism.  Hardly any Han Chinese are Muslims. 

[Admiral Yi]

First and foremost, Uighurs are far more violent. They resort to terrorism against the Han civilian population in other parts of China.  Whereas Tibetans tend to self-immolate.  So there is far greater public support to manage the terrorism issue.

Aren't you overstating the case?  I can think one uncoordinated knife attack in Shanghai.

[Monoriu]

First and foremost, Uighurs are far more violent. They resort to terrorism against the Han civilian population in other parts of China.  Whereas Tibetans tend to self-immolate.  So there is far greater public support to manage the terrorism issue.

Aren't you overstating the case?  I can think one uncoordinated knife attack in Shanghai.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2013_Bachu_unrest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2013_Shanshan_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Airlines_Flight_7554
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Juma_Tayir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Tiananmen_Square_attack

[Admiral Yi]

Fair enough.

Though in passing I will say those Wiki entries give off a distinct junior commissar writing style vibe.

[Tamas]

Guys, you are starting to make my stomach turn.

I am quite certain the Uighurs are being oppressed for the same reason the Soviet regimes oppressed their own peoples, why Stalin relocated the Crimean Tatars to Asia, the Albanians were cleansed in Kosovo or the Armenians were genocided in Turkey: they were deemed insufficiently docile, and too reluctant in taking it on the chin from the dominating/foreign culture/ethnicity acting like a dominating culture/ethnicity.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Guys, you are starting to make my stomach turn.

I am quite certain the Uighurs are being oppressed for the same reason the Soviet regimes oppressed their own peoples, why Stalin relocated the Crimean Tatars to Asia, the Albanians were cleansed in Kosovo or the Armenians were genocided in Turkey: they were deemed insufficiently docile, and too reluctant in taking it on the chin from the dominating/foreign culture/ethnicity acting like a dominating culture/ethnicity.

and that's why the right to self-determinations matters for all nations.

----------

anyways: both Serpentza and laowhy86 on youtube are pretty interesting when it comes to China. Both lived there for quite a while before having to leave (due to the CCP not being able to take any for of criticism, iirc)

[garbon]

Must be a crisis for you, Ivan. Separatism and Islam.