25 years old and deep in debt

[Ed Anger]

Credits unlikely to transfer.

[Savonarola]

Perez was accused of exposing himself to the teen, and asking her to perform oral sex. When she refused, court records say Perez lashed her buttocks with his belt — repeatedly.

And you know, there is a way to write this sentence so it doesn't sound like a breathy line from an early Woody Allen movie.

Yes, but where is the fun in that?

[crazy canuck]

Here is an interesting perspective from a Globe and Mail opinion piece - Canadian university students dont have it as bad as they think they do. In fact they have it better than ever.

The bad news is that American students probably do have it as bad as they think they do.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/student-debt-crisis-twas-ever-thus/article15166915/

Student debt in Canada is crushing – at least, that's what we're led to believe.

Soaring tuition fees and an iffy job market mean that many graduates will be paying off their student loans for years to come, we're told. Today's graduates say they're delaying major life milestones (marriage, house, family) in order to pay back their debts. As one news story put it: "With ever-increasing tuition fees ... some students are starting to question whether a degree is an affordable option."

I'm not unsympathetic. My niece will graduate next spring with a five-figure loan and no prospect of a teaching job this side of Nunavut. But the notion that this generation is uniquely disadvantaged simply isn't true. The real problem isn't student debt. It's student expectation – the idea that a young person should be rewarded with a fulfilling, well-paying job and a middle-class lifestyle as soon as they hit the job market.

It doesn't work that way and never did, even for those irritating boomers.

I graduated debt-free, thanks to low tuition, scholarships, family help and my incredible waitressing skills. But it was a long time before I stopped living like a student. My first job paid $5,000 a year (the equivalent of about $28,000 today). I was hired to alphabetize the backlist catalogue for a publishing company. (This was well before the computer age, needless to say.) With my English lit MA and extensive knowledge of Jacobean theatre, I was seriously underemployed. But after six or seven jobs in six or seven years, I was finally able to move out of my rented attic and ditch my futon bed.

"Student debt appears crushing to a lot of people in the first two years after they graduate," says Alex Usher, who is president of Higher Education Strategy Associates and an expert in student financial aid. "But after two years, they're making pretty good money."

Mr. Usher is a mythbuster on the subject of student debt. Here are some facts: Student debt hasn't grown in the past few years – it's held steady. The average debt for students graduating from four-year programs who have borrowed money is around $25,000. And because of interest rates, the average payments on that debt – about $276 a month – are lower than ever.

But the real news is affordability. Contrary to popular belief, tuition fees aren't soaring. When you factor in tax credits and rebates, net tuition as a percentage of family income has increased by just 3 per cent (in real terms) over the past decade. Compared to the United States, where tuition really has gone through the roof, Canadians get an incredible deal. On top of that, there's no evidence that rising fees affect access. Ontario's tuition fees are higher than Quebec's, but Ontario has higher graduation rates – especially among people from lower-income backgrounds.

"It's not that I want to minimize the problems," Mr. Usher says, "but people who want to maximize the problems don't acknowledge how much [public] money is going into this."

It's true that the job market is far more competitive than it used to be. But the main reason is that there are lot more graduates than there used to be. When we talk about the boomers, maybe we should remember how few of them went to university. As for the income premium, it's still real. It's just smaller than it used to be.

In Canada, Mr. Usher notes, the fact that graduates might have to postpone buying stuff is taken as evidence that student loan debt is out of control. But in other cultures, it's taken as a given. In Asia, university graduates are expected to repay their student loans in four to six years. Many of them have to fork over a quarter to a third of their incomes and live at home. But no one thinks they're deprived. The attitude is: Pay it off fast and move on.

As for the privileged folks who allegedly came before them, the idea that people ever achieved secure and stable lives with ease is largely a myth. My grandparents weathered the Depression. My folks lived with them until having their third child. My dad had health problems in middle age and lost his business. That's life. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure that most of today's up-to-their-necks-in-debt graduates will be fine.

[Malthus]

Here is an interesting perspective from a Globe and Mail opinion piece - Canadian university students dont have it as bad as they think they do. In fact they have it better than ever.

The bad news is that American students probably do have it as bad as they think they do.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/student-debt-crisis-twas-ever-thus/article15166915/

Student debt in Canada is crushing – at least, that's what we're led to believe.

Soaring tuition fees and an iffy job market mean that many graduates will be paying off their student loans for years to come, we're told. Today's graduates say they're delaying major life milestones (marriage, house, family) in order to pay back their debts. As one news story put it: "With ever-increasing tuition fees ... some students are starting to question whether a degree is an affordable option."

I'm not unsympathetic. My niece will graduate next spring with a five-figure loan and no prospect of a teaching job this side of Nunavut. But the notion that this generation is uniquely disadvantaged simply isn't true. The real problem isn't student debt. It's student expectation – the idea that a young person should be rewarded with a fulfilling, well-paying job and a middle-class lifestyle as soon as they hit the job market.

It doesn't work that way and never did, even for those irritating boomers.

I graduated debt-free, thanks to low tuition, scholarships, family help and my incredible waitressing skills. But it was a long time before I stopped living like a student. My first job paid $5,000 a year (the equivalent of about $28,000 today). I was hired to alphabetize the backlist catalogue for a publishing company. (This was well before the computer age, needless to say.) With my English lit MA and extensive knowledge of Jacobean theatre, I was seriously underemployed. But after six or seven jobs in six or seven years, I was finally able to move out of my rented attic and ditch my futon bed.

"Student debt appears crushing to a lot of people in the first two years after they graduate," says Alex Usher, who is president of Higher Education Strategy Associates and an expert in student financial aid. "But after two years, they're making pretty good money."

Mr. Usher is a mythbuster on the subject of student debt. Here are some facts: Student debt hasn't grown in the past few years – it's held steady. The average debt for students graduating from four-year programs who have borrowed money is around $25,000. And because of interest rates, the average payments on that debt – about $276 a month – are lower than ever.

But the real news is affordability. Contrary to popular belief, tuition fees aren't soaring. When you factor in tax credits and rebates, net tuition as a percentage of family income has increased by just 3 per cent (in real terms) over the past decade. Compared to the United States, where tuition really has gone through the roof, Canadians get an incredible deal. On top of that, there's no evidence that rising fees affect access. Ontario's tuition fees are higher than Quebec's, but Ontario has higher graduation rates – especially among people from lower-income backgrounds.

"It's not that I want to minimize the problems," Mr. Usher says, "but people who want to maximize the problems don't acknowledge how much [public] money is going into this."

It's true that the job market is far more competitive than it used to be. But the main reason is that there are lot more graduates than there used to be. When we talk about the boomers, maybe we should remember how few of them went to university. As for the income premium, it's still real. It's just smaller than it used to be.

In Canada, Mr. Usher notes, the fact that graduates might have to postpone buying stuff is taken as evidence that student loan debt is out of control. But in other cultures, it's taken as a given. In Asia, university graduates are expected to repay their student loans in four to six years. Many of them have to fork over a quarter to a third of their incomes and live at home. But no one thinks they're deprived. The attitude is: Pay it off fast and move on.

As for the privileged folks who allegedly came before them, the idea that people ever achieved secure and stable lives with ease is largely a myth. My grandparents weathered the Depression. My folks lived with them until having their third child. My dad had health problems in middle age and lost his business. That's life. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure that most of today's up-to-their-necks-in-debt graduates will be fine.

Canada's student-debt problem - it isn't the having-debt that's the problem, that's really not that bad (especially compared to the states) just like the article says; it's the having-jobs-to-pay-debt.

Comparisons, as in the article, to "my gramps had it bad in the Great Depression" is more hand-wavingly dismissive than helpful. Sure, compared to the great depression, people these days are on easy street in general.

[crazy canuck]

Comparisons, as in the article, to "my gramps had it bad in the Great Depression" is more hand-wavingly dismissive than helpful. Sure, compared to the great depression, people these days are on easy street in general.

You are missing her main point which is the expectation today seems to be that graduates should immediately get rewarding jobs in their field.  She rightly points out that has never been the case.  it wasnt true for her.  It wasnt true for me.  It might have been true for rich kids who had well connected parents however.

[Barrister]

Comparisons, as in the article, to "my gramps had it bad in the Great Depression" is more hand-wavingly dismissive than helpful. Sure, compared to the great depression, people these days are on easy street in general.

You are missing her main point which is the expectation today seems to be that graduates should immediately get rewarding jobs in their field.  She rightly points out that has never been the case.  it wasnt true for her.  It wasnt true for me.  It might have been true for rich kids who had well connected parents however.

Upon graduation I immediately had a rewarding job in my field, and my parents were not well connected (in my field at least).

[crazy canuck]

Then why did you go to law school?

[Malthus]

Comparisons, as in the article, to "my gramps had it bad in the Great Depression" is more hand-wavingly dismissive than helpful. Sure, compared to the great depression, people these days are on easy street in general.

You are missing her main point which is the expectation today seems to be that graduates should immediately get rewarding jobs in their field.  She rightly points out that has never been the case.  it wasnt true for her.  It wasnt true for me.  It might have been true for rich kids who had well connected parents however.

So, she raises a straw man based on what she, personally, happens to believe about 'kids these days', based on what she's pulled out of her ass and the opinions of Mr. Usher - and that's her "main point"? 

Seems like an admirable wholly self-made man who happens to also be a lawyer like yourself would have the street smarts and life skills, unknown to the rest of us slackers, not be overly impressed with such "evidence". 

Then, she as an aside notes "It's true that the job market is far more competitive than it used to be". But who cares? The Great Depression was worse, LOL.

Seems to me that, leaving aside the "evidence" of her usual 'kids these days want the moon for free' screed, what she is actually admitting as real solid tangible facts is that debt is about the same but jobs are harder to come by. The same debt but less income = more debt load, right? 

[Barrister]

Then why did you go to law school?

I was talking about after law school, which had always been my plan anyways.

[crazy canuck]

Then why did you go to law school?

I was talking about after law school, which had always been my plan anyways.

Yeah, no shit sherlock.  Thats my point.

Not everyone can get a professional degree and not everyone who gets a professional degree gets a job in that profession - especially in law.

[merithyn]

Then why did you go to law school?

I was talking about after law school, which had always been my plan anyways.

Yeah, no shit sherlock.  Thats my point.

Not everyone can get a professional degree and not everyone who gets a professional degree gets a job in that profession - especially in law.

Queue: Ide

[Eddie Teach]

There's never been much of a field for English Lit majors to enter. If the author had taken more math courses, he might realize his own inability to find a good job after school hardly disproves the idea that current grads have it tougher in that regard.

[Barrister]

Then why did you go to law school?

I was talking about after law school, which had always been my plan anyways.

Yeah, no shit sherlock.  Thats my point.

Not everyone can get a professional degree and not everyone who gets a professional degree gets a job in that profession - especially in law.

And my point was that I did. 

[crazy canuck]

There's never been much of a field for English Lit majors to enter. If the author had taken more math courses, he might realize his own inability to find a good job after school hardly disproves the idea that current grads have it tougher in that regard.

Its a she, and actually she has quite a good career as a regular columnist.  Her English Lit major worked out quite well for her.

[crazy canuck]

Then why did you go to law school?

I was talking about after law school, which had always been my plan anyways.

Yeah, no shit sherlock.  Thats my point.

Not everyone can get a professional degree and not everyone who gets a professional degree gets a job in that profession - especially in law.

And my point was that I did. 

Yes, after articling.  Not being kept on and working your way to where you are now within the prosecutorial service.  Not exactly a sterling example of the position that students should expect to get the job they want right out of university.