25 years old and deep in debt

[garbon]

Anyway, giving everyone a college education has done nothing but devalue a college education; those from well off backgrounds are exactly as relatively advantaged as before.

True but no. I mean in your system there seems to be little chance at self-advancement and more people potentially straight-jacketed into careers they don't like. Doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness.

[Ideologue]

the value of their investments is the interest they make. that interest is gaureenteed.so it's a great investment for a bank

You could have a great future ahead of you.  Have you considered coming south?  I feel like your talents are being wasted in Canada.

[garbon]

Of course, that positions these individuals as being simply passive. Just cogs ruined by the system.

Not entirely passive, but it does seem congruent with reality that any given individual's range of actions are constrained and defined by large scale social and economic forces.

Is that controversial to you?

Who said anything about controversy? I think it is overblown though to say that the system of college loans is destroying a generation's economic future.

[Ideologue]

Anyway, giving everyone a college education has done nothing but devalue a college education; those from well off backgrounds are exactly as relatively advantaged as before.

True but no. I mean in your system there seems to be little chance at self-advancement and more people potentially straight-jacketed into careers they don't like. Doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness.

Is the only route to self-advancement a bachelor's degree?

[Jacob]

True but no. I mean in your system there seems to be little chance at self-advancement and more people potentially straight-jacketed into careers they don't like. Doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness.

The current system doesn't seem so hot on providing opportunities for self-advancement or well-liked careers either.

[MadImmortalMan]

Is the only route to self-advancement a bachelor's degree?

It's easy to think that way, because we've been schooled to think we need to be schooled.

[garbon]

True but no. I mean in your system there seems to be little chance at self-advancement and more people potentially straight-jacketed into careers they don't like. Doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness.

The current system doesn't seem so hot on providing opportunities for self-advancement or well-liked careers either.

Sure but I don't see why that suggests another system with similar deficiencies sounds better.

[garbon]

Anyway, giving everyone a college education has done nothing but devalue a college education; those from well off backgrounds are exactly as relatively advantaged as before.

True but no. I mean in your system there seems to be little chance at self-advancement and more people potentially straight-jacketed into careers they don't like. Doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness.

Is the only route to self-advancement a bachelor's degree?

No, of course not but even for many careers, you are going to need some sort of vocational training and I think we both hardly see businesses leaping to fill that space.

[Jacob]

I think it is overblown though to say that the system of college loans is destroying a generation's economic future.

What do you base that on, if you don't mind me asking?

[crazy canuck]

No, of course not but even for many careers, you are going to need some sort of vocational training and I think we both hardly see businesses leaping to fill that space.

Yeah, I think you have identified one of the core problem here.  It used to be (even when I was going through University) the employers where happy to get university educated entry level employees who they could train in the specific tasks/skills required in the workplace.  Vocational skills were largely obtained through on the job sponsored apprentice programs.

All that has changed and now employers are looking to universities to turn out job ready applicants - essentially turning universities into vocational training grounds.  Something, I would argue, universities are entirely unable to do and more importantly should resist doing.

[crazy canuck]

I think it is overblown though to say that the system of college loans is destroying a generation's economic future.

What do you base that on, if you don't mind me asking?

For what it is worth, I agree with him.  The real problem is elsewhere.  Students loans are a symptom of the failure of the current system.

[Ideologue]

Garbon, what kind of system would correct the deficiencies?

The problems in the "state of nature" seem to be these:

1)Class concerns (which are weird coming from g, no offense);
2)"Uneducated populace" that can't compete with slave states or enlightened, studious Europeans;
3)Higher education really is a good thing for society.

Fwiw, I think these are all accurate.

The problems with the status quo that I have identified are:
1)A free market approach on the supply end of higher ed has led to it becoming an amoral, profit-seeking business in its own right;
2)A statist approach on the demand end has led to price explosion;
3)Debt taken on to study what amount to hobbies;
4)Credentialization and accompanying devaluation of non-specific credentials;
5)A vast mismatch between what the economy requires and the credentials people get.

I think taking either a statist or free market approach to either end will fix or ameliorate all of these five problems.  But a statist approach to the demand and supply ends can potentially, at least, address all of the "state of nature" issues.

But the hybrid we've developed as a cure is far worse than the disease.

[Ed Anger]

Get a job hippies!

Give them jobs, Boomer.

I have, lumpen proletariat.

[Jacob]

For what it is worth, I agree with him.  The real problem is elsewhere.  Students loans are a symptom of the failure of the current system.

Are you talking about the Canadian system, the American one, or both?

And for what it's worth, I'm happy to agree that the student debt burden carried is a symptom of a larger failure. As for garbon, I'm not sure he considers the student debt burden a symptom of anything other a number of individual failures (rather than a systemic one).

[Ideologue]

Get a job hippies!

Give them jobs, Boomer.

I have, lumpen proletariat.

I'M NOT LUMPEN.