25 years old and deep in debt

[CountDeMoney]

Bingo.

My degree is from the University of Arizona. Not a bad Comp Sci school, but hardly anything nationally recognized.

Would I have been better off with a degree from Stanford or Cal? Only if I wanted to go into academia or something like that. Even then, it isn't that important unless I want to go into academia at an elite school.

Really?  Stanford or Cal's computer sci programs aren't practical degrees like Arizona's? Is it all esoteric computer science theory there?

[Berkut]

Yeah, but that is inevitable if you give enough people access to cash.

It is like blaming the mortgage meltdown on people who took out loans they could not afford. Sure, they should not do that, and if nobody did that there would not be a problem...but of course people WILL do that if you let them.

I guess though I still think a bit of that is getting people to actually understand what they are getting into.  I doubt many students entering into students loans are having serious discussions about how said loans will crush them after school.  Clearly the writer of this article wasn't very aware and she's from all accounts a fairly bright girl.

Besides not everyone has insane students loans like what has been discussed here.  So what is it about the groups of people that don't have much parental financing that manage to get done with school without owing 200k? What is it about those individuals that make them so different?

Basic sense of personal responsibility? I don't know.

Of course, lets be honest here - lots and lots and lots of people go to school, use the student loan system in a perfectly reasonable manner (or at least not egregiously irresponsibly) and graduate with perfectly manageable loans.

How big is the problem, really? This chick is obviously an outlier, and hardly representative. There is a danger in "solving" the extreme problem to the detriment of everyone else.

I don't know her, so cannot really comment beyond speculation about her issues. I would guess that being "pretty bright" doesn't get you past the emotional sense of entitlement that makes people think that taking out hundreds of thousands in student loans without considering how they are ever going to repay them is a fine plan.

Lord knows I know plenty of people from college who basically took out as much in loans as they could, not matter what they actually needed. Some of them were plenty smart enough to know better.

[Berkut]

Bingo.

My degree is from the University of Arizona. Not a bad Comp Sci school, but hardly anything nationally recognized.

Would I have been better off with a degree from Stanford or Cal? Only if I wanted to go into academia or something like that. Even then, it isn't that important unless I want to go into academia at an elite school.

Really?  Stanford or Cal's computer sci programs aren't practical degrees like Arizona's? Is it all esoteric computer science theory there?

No, I am sure Stanford and Cal have outstanding CS programs, actually. Almost certainly much better than Arizona's.

But if you are the kind of person who can get into Cal and Stanford in the first place, you are going to do just fine with a degree from any top-50 school in industry. Because industry doesn't much care where your degree is from after the first job, outside of academia of course.

[garbon]

Basic sense of personal responsibility? I don't know.

Of course, lets be honest here - lots and lots and lots of people go to school, use the student loan system in a perfectly reasonable manner (or at least not egregiously irresponsibly) and graduate with perfectly manageable loans.

How big is the problem, really? This chick is obviously an outlier, and hardly representative. There is a danger in "solving" the extreme problem to the detriment of everyone else.

I don't know her, so cannot really comment beyond speculation about her issues. I would guess that being "pretty bright" doesn't get you past the emotional sense of entitlement that makes people think that taking out hundreds of thousands in student loans without considering how they are ever going to repay them is a fine plan.

Lord knows I know plenty of people from college who basically took out as much in loans as they could, not matter what they actually needed. Some of them were plenty smart enough to know better.

But is this what you wrote a message commonly expressed?

Bingo.

My degree is from the University of Arizona. Not a bad Comp Sci school, but hardly anything nationally recognized.

Would I have been better off with a degree from Stanford or Cal? Only if I wanted to go into academia or something like that. Even then, it isn't that important unless I want to go into academia at an elite school.

If you want to work in industry, it largely does not matter as long as it is a decent school.

I don't remember anyone teaching this in school. It was more like the best school you can get into, find a way!

I'm not sure there is any danger in teaching K-12 students some basic financial sense.

[OttoVonBismarck]

People are very uncomfortable when you talk to them about how a degree at any "normal" university probably pays off (tuition cost adjusted) just as much as a degree from elite universities. The elite universities have done a very good job creating the impression that you need a degree from their school to have any hope of any success in life. Further, the students who go to school there are loathe to ever admit that maybe they could have done just as well if they had gone to Virginia Tech instead of Harvard.

There are real benefits to the elite schools, but most of them are intangible and aren't reflected in the salaries in average graduates going into most career fields, the small percentage of fields and small percentage of people where it makes a big difference often are from top 1% families anyway and already know the ways in which the elite schools are important. But most college students simply do not fit that profile in regard to their actual needs.

[garbon]

But if you are the kind of person who can get into Cal and Stanford in the first place, you are going to do just fine with a degree from any top-50 school in industry. Because industry doesn't much care where your degree is from after the first job, outside of academia of course.

I'm not sure that's clear.  After all, the kinds of things that get one accepted to Cal/Stanford - good grades and standardized test scores don't really mean that you'll get along well in a professional workplace environment.  There's a lot more to that than high school achievement.

Also, I'm not sure how easy it is for that Framingham State to get that first relevant job vs. the Boston University student.

[Josquius]

Maybe the US is different but certainly in the UK a lot of graduate jobs outright demand as a minimum for even bothering to apply, good grades from a top 20 university.
In Japan too the name of one of the good universities carries a huge amount of weight in job hunting.

[CountDeMoney]

Because industry doesn't much care where your degree is from after the first job, outside of academia of course.

Concur.  Academic pedigree only matters in academia.  Saw that at Hopkins up close;  even in the non-clinical arena, there were Hopkins grads and then "everybody else"--from Nursing to Communications.  It was rather ridiculous, actually.

[garbon]

Because industry doesn't much care where your degree is from after the first job, outside of academia of course.

Concur.  Academic pedigree only matters in academia.  Saw that at Hopkins up close;  even in the non-clinical arena, there were Hopkins grads and then "everybody else"--from Nursing to Communications.  It was rather ridiculous, actually.

Actually I've applied for jobs where it was suggested that I'd really not be interested because of where I went to school.

[CountDeMoney]

Concur.  Academic pedigree only matters in academia.  Saw that at Hopkins up close;  even in the non-clinical arena, there were Hopkins grads and then "everybody else"--from Nursing to Communications.  It was rather ridiculous, actually.

Actually I've applied for jobs where it was suggested that I'd really not be interested because of where I went to school.

I tried to transfer out to Communications.  I got the hint.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Maybe the US is different but certainly in the UK a lot of graduate jobs outright demand as a minimum for even bothering to apply, good grades from a top 20 university.
In Japan too the name of one of the good universities carries a huge amount of weight in job hunting.

It's not really like that to be honest, in the United States. If you show up with a degree from the University of Phoenix Online it is unlikely you'll get a great job, but most of what determines your first job in America will be based on what internships you lined up and how well you interview. Most employers here don't even request transcripts these days and many don't even ask about GPA. There is a recognition that grades have mostly fallen victim to "grade inflation" and are a meaningless predictor of professional performance.

The perspective in industry is basically that graduating college students are babies who need at least 6 months of unproductive, paid work time to become productive. Some will never become productive and have to be cut and that's just part of your "recruiting costs." To try and minimize the risk of that happening overwhelming preference is given to those who have good practical internship experience relevant to their field.

Now keep in mind, going to a school like Arizona or Virginia Tech which have tens of thousands of alumni and a big career office, there are tons of local and national companies that the university has established a recruiting relationship with. They will have career fairs at these schools and they emphasize getting internships, too. We shouldn't act like schools like Arizona are dregs employers don't care about, because nothing is further from the truth.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Let's take as an example Texas Tech, which I believe is not even a top 120 nationally ranked school.

Graduates from its engineering school have an 89% one year job placement rate. Some of the large companies that regularly hire TTU grads are Dell, Lockheed Martin, BP, Chevron, Raytheon etc. These grads aren't going to work at some no-name company (well, some are.)

Of course rankings of prestige are a bad way to evaluate a school because all the rankings I'm aware of (Princeton Review, U.S. News) actually don't rank at all based on graduate performance. Maybe some weight is given now in response to the economic downturn, but the last time I looked at those rankings virtually 100% of the score was based on incoming freshman class GPA, incoming freshman class ACT/SAT, and acceptance rate.

So basically the more exclusive, the higher than ranking. No attention was given to post-graduate performance on any form of standardized test or etc (for most fields there is no standardized test to take after graduation so these metrics do not exist.)

[CountDeMoney]

Most employers here don't even request transcripts these days and many don't even ask about GPA.

Not to mention, as we have before re: background verification, all you get is a "Did he graduate: Yes/No" verification anyway.

Now keep in mind, going to a school like Arizona or Virginia Tech which have tens of thousands of alumni and a big career office, there are tons of local and national companies that the university has established a recruiting relationship with. They will have career fairs at these schools and they emphasize getting internships, too. We shouldn't act like schools like Arizona are dregs employers don't care about, because nothing is further from the truth.

Alumni can be worse than Masons in that regard.  Or better, depending.

At least with LinkedIn, you usually have a tip off as to where your potential boss/interviewer/HR mongrel went to school.

[Berkut]

But if you are the kind of person who can get into Cal and Stanford in the first place, you are going to do just fine with a degree from any top-50 school in industry. Because industry doesn't much care where your degree is from after the first job, outside of academia of course.

I'm not sure that's clear.  After all, the kinds of things that get one accepted to Cal/Stanford - good grades and standardized test scores don't really mean that you'll get along well in a professional workplace environment.  There's a lot more to that than high school achievement.

Of course - but that is true whether you actually attend Cal/Stanford or not. Being lazy or unsociable isn't cured at Cal.

Also, I'm not sure how easy it is for that Framingham State to get that first relevant job vs. the Boston University student.

I am sure it depends on the job market of course. But the point is that you are going to have a career for some 30+ years. The FIRST job, while it may seem critically important when you are trying to get it...really isn't in the long run.

[Gups]

Maybe the US is different but certainly in the UK a lot of graduate jobs outright demand as a minimum for even bothering to apply, good grades from a top 20 university.
In Japan too the name of one of the good universities carries a huge amount of weight in job hunting.

Reall? Have you got a source for this?

They may require a 2.1 orr better but I've never, ever seen any company advertise specifically for graduates of a "top 20 unievrsity" (whatever that is). And I really doubt that any of them do.