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Best and worst crimes for employment?

Started by Capetan Mihali, July 23, 2012, 05:26:52 PM

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Ed Anger

Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 25, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
It's a stupid law.  Why shouldn't employers be allowed to know some fuckup was dishonorably discharged?

If I had my old HR handbooks in front of me, I'd give the reason the legal beagles came up with.

What I can remember was that with all the different kinds of discharges, it protects the medical dischargees and ones discharged for other non-nasty causes.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Ed Anger

And yes, before somebody does the joke, I did a stint in HR for several months. HA HA.   :(
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

MadImmortalMan

You don't need any reason other than "I liked the other guy better". Who cares.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

dps

Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 01:01:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 12:43:40 PM
Isn't this loop whole created by the applicants?
It's created by some of the applicants that want to get an unfair advantage.  It's enabled by employers who consciously or subconsciously act on such information.  After a while, it can create a situation where you have to make use of that loophole as an applicant in order to avoid the assumption that you belong to the legally protected undesirable class, which then completely negates the law.

So an employer should ignore evidence in front of them?
No, you can't blame participants of the flawed system for taking advantage of the system, unless they had a hand in making the system flawed in the first place.  Ultimately the fault for the loopholes lies with those who created them, not exploited them.  It doesn't mean that you should just live with it either, though.

The only way to close that one would be to make it a crime for an honorably discharged veteran to tell people that he was honorably discharged.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: dps on July 25, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
The only way to close that one would be to make it a crime for an honorably discharged veteran to tell people that he was honorably discharged.

You could make it mandatory that employers put their hands over their ears and start to shout LALALALALALALALA as soon as the vet starts talking about it.

garbon

Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 25, 2012, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: dps on July 25, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
The only way to close that one would be to make it a crime for an honorably discharged veteran to tell people that he was honorably discharged.

You could make it mandatory that employers put their hands over their ears and start to shout LALALALALALALALA as soon as the vet starts talking about it.

And maybe companies could have software that automatically redacts parts of resumes.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

DGuller

Quote from: dps on July 25, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
The only way to close that one would be to make it a crime for an honorably discharged veteran to tell people that he was honorably discharged.
Really, that's the only way? :rolleyes: I can think of at least another way.  You can require employers to clearly state on their application that any details related to protected classes (listed out) SHOULD NOT be disclosed, unless clearly relevant to pertinent information (if you're applying to a teaching job, and have past experience in a parochial school, then obviously there is no getting around disclosing that).  Disclosing such information anyway should be viewed dimly by the hiring manager screening the applications.

DGuller

Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 25, 2012, 01:20:18 PM
Quote from: dps on July 25, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
The only way to close that one would be to make it a crime for an honorably discharged veteran to tell people that he was honorably discharged.

You could make it mandatory that employers put their hands over their ears and start to shout LALALALALALALALA as soon as the vet starts talking about it.
The HR person who instructed me on how to conduct interviews did recommend changing the subject quickly when a candidate voluntarily disclosed something we are prohibited from asking about.

garbon

Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Disclosing such information anyway should be viewed dimly by the hiring manager screening the applications.

Maybe though seems odd that they'd want to shoot themselves in the foot.  After all, for myself the fact that I'm single with no mortgage - meaning that I can easily pack up my life and move elsewhere, isn't something that employers can ask me about but is a positive if you're looking for candidates to relocate.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Barrister

Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Disclosing such information anyway should be viewed dimly by the hiring manager screening the applications.

Maybe though seems odd that they'd want to shoot themselves in the foot.  After all, for myself the fact that I'm single with no mortgage - meaning that I can easily pack up my life and move elsewhere, isn't something that employers can ask me about but is a positive if you're looking for candidates to relocate.

When I applied for my current job I was told "you sound great, but you've moved around a fair bit - how do I know you won't just move again in a few years?"

Now, they of course are prohibited from asking me about marital and family status.  But when I then volunteered that we wanted to move because of new baby / wanted to be close to family that seemed to be a very acceptable answer to the question, and I got the job.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

DGuller

Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Disclosing such information anyway should be viewed dimly by the hiring manager screening the applications.

Maybe though seems odd that they'd want to shoot themselves in the foot.  After all, for myself the fact that I'm single with no mortgage - meaning that I can easily pack up my life and move elsewhere, isn't something that employers can ask me about but is a positive if you're looking for candidates to relocate.
Of course they would be shooting themselves in the foot.  If there were no advantage from taking protected information into account when making decisions, we wouldn't need laws that establish protected classes to begin with.

garbon

Quote from: Barrister on July 25, 2012, 01:57:01 PM
When I applied for my current job I was told "you sound great, but you've moved around a fair bit - how do I know you won't just move again in a few years?"

Now, they of course are prohibited from asking me about marital and family status.  But when I then volunteered that we wanted to move because of new baby / wanted to be close to family that seemed to be a very acceptable answer to the question, and I got the job.

Well that's just a matter of tailoring your message to your audience/job description. Wasn't saying it was a hard fast rule. :P
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 02:00:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Disclosing such information anyway should be viewed dimly by the hiring manager screening the applications.

Maybe though seems odd that they'd want to shoot themselves in the foot.  After all, for myself the fact that I'm single with no mortgage - meaning that I can easily pack up my life and move elsewhere, isn't something that employers can ask me about but is a positive if you're looking for candidates to relocate.
Of course they would be shooting themselves in the foot.  If there were no advantage from taking protected information into account when making decisions, we wouldn't need laws that establish protected classes to begin with.

My point is that you can't really prevent such information from being shared if the applicant wants to - unless you have companies do the illogical thing of throwing out better candidates.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

DGuller

Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 02:15:18 PM
My point is that you can't really prevent such information from being shared if the applicant wants to - unless you have companies do the illogical thing of throwing out better candidates.
It won't be illogical if there are legal repercussions for doing it.

garbon

Quote from: DGuller on July 25, 2012, 02:20:54 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 25, 2012, 02:15:18 PM
My point is that you can't really prevent such information from being shared if the applicant wants to - unless you have companies do the illogical thing of throwing out better candidates.
It won't be illogical if there are legal repercussions for doing it.

It would be illogical for companies to not seek the candidate who is best fit for the position.  It would be illogical for candidates to not share information that could bolster their application.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.