Youtube Recommendations

[crazy canuck]

Paradox has a game in which the Nazis can conquer the world, complete with gratuitous art which celebrates that outcome.  I am not sure they are spending much in the way of resources to contextualize the slave trade.

But explicitly excludes the holocaust, concentration camps and (IIRC) slave labor or e.g. the more vile actions of the Japanese (biological warfare against the Chinese, Unit 751, "Comfort Women", etc.).

Which is something you see in most wargames.

OK but everything I said in my post is still accurate.

[The Minsky Moment]

OK but everything I said in my post is still accurate.

Yes and maybe the distinction is too fine, but I do think there is a difference between leading the electronic troops to simulated victory that have the swastika flag on their icons vs. actually assigning Einsatzgruppe battalions to murder Jews and Slavs.

[crazy canuck]

OK but everything I said in my post is still accurate.

Yes and maybe the distinction is too fine, but I do think there is a difference between leading the electronic troops to simulated victory that have the swastika flag on their icons vs. actually assigning Einsatzgruppe battalions to murder Jews and Slavs.

Certainly, but I was responding to your post being concerned about the pedagogical effect of a game, modelling slavery in a way that made it seem that it was the most economically beneficial option.

my point is simply that there is already a game that promotes the proposition that it's most beneficial for a fascist regime to rule the world. They just released a whole DLC to make that fantasy come true.

[Syt]

I think it's more complicated. I think there's a qualitative difference between a game making slavery the optimal way of playing, while HoI makes almost no ethical judgment calls as to its politics, I think. Fascism or Communism or Democracy are just gameplay concepts without really going into its implications for the people living in those societies and policies that affect them. Unlike, say, Vic3 where racial segregation, slavery, nationalist superioty etc. affect the pops in various ways (to be fleshed out more with next DLC). HoI meanwhile leans in on the "cool" factor, and the "clean" military side of things without dealing with the "problematic" parts of e.g. Nazi ideology.

Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa, or Cauldrons of War: Barbarossa make some attempt of addressing this by giving you decisions - want to enact the Komissarbefehl? Want to discipline a unit that in a drunken rage killed hundreds of Jews? Do you want to treat your prisoners humanely? Sure, these are pretty basic choices, and the affects are necessarily abstract, but that those games even bring up these questions at all is notable, because it's rarely made a topic in games around WW2.

EDIT: Also, without mods, HoI (and many wargames) doesn't even have swastikas.

[Barrister]

I haven't played around with HOI since HOI2, but as I seem to recall the game makes absolutely zero reference or mention of the holocaust or concentration camps, even though most historians think the resources diverted to the camps made a noticeable difference in the German war effort.

These are tough questions though.  You can certainly imagine a game that includes the Holocaust and having sntisemitic edgelords competing to see how many Jews they can murder before the end of the game, as one example.

Or very specifically not to compare the two, but the US military was still segregated during WWII.  Should the game try to model segregation in the US, and what would or would not happen if the military was desegregated in the middle of war?

[Josquius]

Putting aside the morals of it. It'd be a curious one to handle.
It's a pretty basic level "what if", the whole "what if Hitler wasn't a genocidal anti semitic moron".
The basic answer is... If he wasn't like that he'd not have took all the gambles he did and gotten into the position where it really became a problem.
Pretty easy for a gamer to say ok, so I won't be anti semitic, I'll keep the nuclear scientists and the manpower.... But what then? The "Hitler" character revolts against them? Unrest in Germany for lack of a easy scapegoat? - maybe this could be the way it goes, pick your scapegoat, some groups cause less material loss but they're less "satisfying" for the masses, don't secure your regime as much.
It's hard to imagine how it could be done right even before you get to the morality of it being awful.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I'm sure nobody but middle aged folks on Twitter find Minions funny any more. But this ... this made me chuckle.

Heheh, that was worth the time.
Nice find

[Crazy_Ivan80]

OK but everything I said in my post is still accurate.

Yes and maybe the distinction is too fine, but I do think there is a difference between leading the electronic troops to simulated victory that have the swastika flag on their icons vs. actually assigning Einsatzgruppe battalions to murder Jews and Slavs.

Certainly, but I was responding to your post being concerned about the pedagogical effect of a game, modelling slavery in a way that made it seem that it was the most economically beneficial option.

my point is simply that there is already a game that promotes the proposition that it's most beneficial for a fascist regime to rule the world. They just released a whole DLC to make that fantasy come true.

That's a novel take on the American elections....

[Syt]

Nice find

The channel is quite good. I especially recommend Frank Reynolds from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia in BG3 and Rambo in Half Life 2 (I may have posted them somewhere further up).

[crazy canuck]

OK but everything I said in my post is still accurate.

Yes and maybe the distinction is too fine, but I do think there is a difference between leading the electronic troops to simulated victory that have the swastika flag on their icons vs. actually assigning Einsatzgruppe battalions to murder Jews and Slavs.

Certainly, but I was responding to your post being concerned about the pedagogical effect of a game, modelling slavery in a way that made it seem that it was the most economically beneficial option.

my point is simply that there is already a game that promotes the proposition that it's most beneficial for a fascist regime to rule the world. They just released a whole DLC to make that fantasy come true.

That's a novel take on the American elections....

You're right, but we were discussing Minsky's post about EU5

[crazy canuck]

Syt, Isn't the fact that there is no moral judgement made about whether one plays the Soviets, the Nazis or the Allies the very problem with the game.  The symbolism may not be there, but the game is certainly a vehicle for Nazi fanboys to play out their fantasies. 

[grumbler]

Nice find

The channel is quite good. I especially recommend Frank Reynolds from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia in BG3 and Rambo in Half Life 2 (I may have posted them somewhere further up).

Thanks for the steer.  There's a lot of good stuff there.

[Syt]

Two part documentary from History Hit (ignore the click bait titles):

On 22 June 1941, Hitler's Germany launched 'Operation Barbarossa', the attack of the Soviet Union, the largest invasion in military history. In June 2019, twelve dusty notebooks and a wealth of loose paperwork were discovered in Germany; the diaries of Oberleutnant Wilhelm Sander, a young officer in the 11th Panzer-Regiment who took part in the enormous campaign. On every single day Sander, in a brutally honest manner, elaborately recorded his experiences, impressions and the events he witnessed.

Now transcribed and translated for the first time, they offer a brutally honest, intimate and fascinating view into the murderous and unforgiving nature of war on the Eastern Front from the summer of 1941 to the eventual German retreat in the terrible winter of 1941/1942, while offering a unique glimpse into the world of thought of a highly politicised officer of the German Wehrmacht and member of the NSDAP.

Follow the path of Leutnant Friedrich Sander, a Panzer officer in the German Wehrmacht during Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union.

In the first part of a two-part film, we follow Leutnant Sander on the strenuous, and costly race towards Leningrad and learn about the murderous and terrifying goals of the German campaign in the east.

 Part Two, we pick up with Sander as the Russian weather starts to turns, the German advance begins to stutter and the Soviets prepare for their enormous counter attack.

The brutal reality of the Eastern Front during World War II is exposed through his lost German diaries. The speaker recounts firsthand experiences of the difficulties faced in the harsh conditions of the war. The Russian army was tough and the Germans struggled to advance and capture Moscow. The speaker also describes the violence and brutality directed towards civilian populations in areas where the Germans retreated, which even shook the dedicated National Socialist soldiers. The war was a traumatic experience, reflected upon by the speaker who has become a pacifist as a result.

[Syt]

From 1981: Bernie Sanders, the Newly elected mayor of Burlington, VT talking to Phil Donahue:

[Valmy]

Bernie has looked 75 years old his entire life.