It's morning in Wisconsin

[garbon]

Right, so the issue is about protecting the system of using Unions to circumvent the political process. Gotcha.

Good riddance - double good riddance in fact.

We get rid of the problem of not being able to afford to ridiculously over-pay a minority of the population, AND the problem that in return for being over-payed, they agree to politically support those willing to overpay them the most.

How do unions circumvent the political process?  Political contributions are legal, aren't they?

Well I think Valmy had a good point as far as public sector unions subverting the political process by threatening to strike and thus undermining the power of elected officials to control their pay/benefits.

[Berkut]

I'll say the same thing I said when the shit originally hit the fan.  Public employee unions are bad, but crony capitalism is worse.  If the cost of crushing the first is to further empower the second, it's a bad trade.  It's like supporting Nazis to combat communism.

Well, in this case there isn't anyone else to combat the communists. It's not like the Dems are going to take on the unions, right?

I am glad Walker stomped on the public service unions. His being supported by the "we all should get as much democracy as we can buy" crowd is pretty distasteful, but that doesn't change the fact that I think what he has done on this issue is a good thing. I don't accept that even if "crony capitalism" is worse, it is somehow connected to public service unions. I can and am happy to be against both of them (at least I think I am - I suspect "crony capitalism" doesn't really mean anything though).

It is connected because the two are moneyed interests at odds with each other.  If you destroy one, the other one gets more power.  You seem to think, almost to the point of assumption, that unions are the worst evil, and should be defeated regardless of who you have to ally with.

No, I think unions are a pretty bad evil, and don't agree that destroying them means that whatever power they had automatically goes to some other evil.

There are lots of states that are NOT dominated by very powerful public sector unions, and I don't buy your assumption that they must therefore all be in the pockets of "crony capitalism". That is a pretty difficult claim to evidence I think.

The idea that we should preserve the perversion of the democracy (not to mention the incredible expense) that public sector unions represent because the ONLY alternative is this undefined "crony capitalism" might be the weakest argument I have ever seen for maintaining unions.

I think we are better off noting that public sector unions are bad, so lets get rid of them.

We should also note that massive funding of politicians via corporate interests is bad as well, and something should be done about that. Of course, much has been tried there, without much success.

Of course, it is a fiction that the Dems MUST have this source of political power to counter Republican power from large financial backers. The Dems have their own large financial backers, and it isn't like there is anything stopping them from raising billions in super-pacs as well.

The reverse is not true, or rather, if it is true, it would just make the problem worse if the "solution" to Democratic domination of public sector unions in their historical "pay for votes" scheme were to be combated by the Republicans just doing the same. Then we would have political parties competing with one another to woo the union votes and organization, making them even more powerful and impossible to fund.

This is a case where the political parties alignments have resulted in the Republicans being on the right side of the issue, and the Dems on the wrong side. That helped the Dems for a very long time, and now it is not.

[Razgovory]

And even if one party did take total control history shows it will just split again.  Vote Neo-Whig!

Oh boy.  One group of Republicans and another group of Republicans.  That sounds like lots of fun.

Yes because everyone in America will be forced to become a Republican.

Looks like they can get the black gays. 

[derspiess]

Wiconsin version of Seedy crying about the election last night:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/voter-cries-over-wi-recall-on-cnn-signaling-death-of-democracy-%E2%80%98end-of-usa-as-we-know-it%E2%80%99/

"We got oot-spent!" 

[garbon]

And even if one party did take total control history shows it will just split again.  Vote Neo-Whig!

Oh boy.  One group of Republicans and another group of Republicans.  That sounds like lots of fun.

Yes because everyone in America will be forced to become a Republican.

Looks like they can get the black gays. 

Only since I moved to New York. Before the Dems had me.

[Razgovory]

B.S.

[garbon]

Wiconsin version of Seedy crying about the election last night:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/voter-cries-over-wi-recall-on-cnn-signaling-death-of-democracy-%E2%80%98end-of-usa-as-we-know-it%E2%80%99/

"We got oot-spent!" 

I'd bet many in our proud union couldn't pick Wisconsin out on a map.

[CountDeMoney]

Are workplace conditions deteriorating?

Slashing $1.85 billion from the Wisconsin education system, yeah, I'd say workplace conditions are deteriorating.

[Razgovory]

I hope that all of you will tell the clerk at the DMV why they shouldn't have the freedom association.

[garbon]

B.S.

It is true though. I first registered to vote as a Dem and voted for several Dems in local elections as well as many socially liberal ballot measures (of which we had an endless supply). That didn't stop me though for voting for a Republican governor or President.  Now in New York, while I've been registered as a Republican, I've not actually voted for anyone.

[derspiess]

"The idea that Scott Walker did not know what was going on in a ten person office ... is absurd. It's not believable," Zielinski said

Gots to prove it.

If I remember right Walker reported the crime in the first place and prosecutors have already said that Walker is not a target of the investigation.

I was wondering why Seedy sounds more and more retarded, now we know that he gets his news from MSNBC.

Even worse, he wants to nail Madcow 

[Razgovory]

Yeah, you are a GOPTard just like Berkut.

[garbon]

I hope that all of you will tell the clerk at the DMV why they shouldn't have the freedom association.

If I were to give them advice, I'd advise them to find a job that they actually enjoy.

[Hansmeister]

Are workplace conditions deteriorating?

Slashing $1.85 billion from the Wisconsin education system, yeah, I'd say workplace conditions are deteriorating.

What was slashed was the Union negotiated health care plans.  The Unions negotiated for the State to buy health insurance from the Union itself, grossly overpriced for what was provided in order to create a slush fund for the Union leadership.  By getting out of this corrupt arraingement school districts have been able to increase spending on actual education.

Your arguments are pathetic.

[garbon]

Are workplace conditions deteriorating?

Slashing $1.85 billion from the Wisconsin education system, yeah, I'd say workplace conditions are deteriorating.

We're in the age of budgets being slashed. That on its own is not compelling. Gimme some human interest.