I for one welcome our new European Overlords

[Berkut]

What I don't get is the completely one-sided portrayal you insist on casting this issue in - the Islamists are all uniformly earnest moderate democrats being cruely threatened by the ogres of the military, who use their concern about eroding Turkeys historical secularism as "fig leaf" for their meddling.

Maybe the Islamists are using their "moderacy" as a fig leaf to cover their desire to erode Turkey historically secular status. I don't know, but apparently you guys do, so well that you are comfortable casting this conflict in the starkest possible terms.

I am not buying it. Frankly, if *I* was a "hardcore secularist" in Turkey, I would share their concerns - and I notice that the article you quote points out that it is NOT strictly the military upset about this, but many of the largely secular public as well.

[Alatriste]

I think a common analysis is that the government that the Turks voted in has, surprisingly given its Islamist leanings, been the most democratic government Turkey has ever had.

Actually secularists often are far more worrying and dangerous. I will take a 'Christian Democrat' Muslim over a rabid nationalist loony or even worse, a Turanist, any day. Some of those Turkish secularists are too near to Nazism for our peace of mind... and there is also that little thing about denying the Armenian genocide too. Quite frankly, is astonishing that Americans of all people are willing to extend such a free pass to Holocaust deniers.

[Alatriste]

Gotta love the EU...

"Saddled with a debt-driven economy?  We'll take you if you're white.  Swarthy middle-eastern NATO members need not apply."

If that were only so.

But if you were right, the greeks, spaniards, italians and irish would've never been invited.

Spain is a swarthy south-western NATO member!

Besides, Turks and Spaniards (notice the capital 'T' and 'S' you Nazi) are pretty much teh same color. The idea Turks are dark skinned Arabs is a figment of the good Count's imagination (or a trap set to show we care about colors... a curious trap, since he's the one minding them but whatever)

Oh, there is that little question about numbers: Iceland, with its 300,000 inhabitants is just an small snack. Turkey with its fast growing 75,000,000 inhabitants, is almost too much to bite (and has borders with Syria, Iraq... )

Oh, and Iceland has rich fisheries too 

Your spanish inanities will not be tolerated for much longer, dunecoon.

Bring it on, kid. Last time a Swede used that tone with us it was 1634 and a few of his soldiers did live to regret it.

[Viking]

Lützen was in 1632

[Delirium]

Epic fail, Slargos, the Spanish were not involved in Lützen.

They were involved at Nördlingen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_N%C3%B6rdlingen_(1634), though.

[Siege]

Hahaha.

Spain fails!

[Alatriste]

Viking, Delirium, Siege... Who said the Swede was Gustavus Adolphus, or the battle Lützen?

Of course, I said 1634 because he was Gustav Horn (with Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar) and the battle, Nördlingen.

Now you have sprung the trap before S. entered...

[Sheilbh]

What I don't get is the completely one-sided portrayal you insist on casting this issue in - the Islamists are all uniformly earnest moderate democrats being cruely threatened by the ogres of the military, who use their concern about eroding Turkeys historical secularism as "fig leaf" for their meddling.

Well the reason I see it as relatively onesided is that on the one side is a successful and relatively competent government that's got a few good achievements and has been committed to democracy.  On the other side there's a military threatening coups.  If you removed the word 'Islam' from the discussion I don't think anyone on this forum would see it as anything but a one-sided argument.

Of course it is arguable that what this actually reflects is the emergence of a pious Anatolian middle class who are politically self-confident and a shift in power to them from the sort of Istanbul-Ankara elite that's dominated Turkish politics for a long time.

Maybe the Islamists are using their "moderacy" as a fig leaf to cover their desire to erode Turkey historically secular status. I don't know, but apparently you guys do, so well that you are comfortable casting this conflict in the starkest possible terms.

Where's the evidence of that?  The AKP haven't, ultimately, supported a single law that erodes Turkey's historically secular status.  Except, of course, the attempt to let women wear the head scarf in government property.

I am not buying it. Frankly, if *I* was a "hardcore secularist" in Turkey, I would share their concerns - and I notice that the article you quote points out that it is NOT strictly the military upset about this, but many of the largely secular public as well.

I said it was the secularists who support threatened military coups who have issues with EU membership because, to be a member of the EU Turkey has to be a democracy.

I don't think any principle on which a state should be founded on, such as secularism or equality, should have the military and a deep state to guarantee.  Democracy comes first because democracy can change.

[Valmy]

Except, of course, the attempt to let women wear the head scarf in government property.

[Berkut]

I said it was the secularists who support threatened military coups who have issues with EU membership because, to be a member of the EU Turkey has to be a democracy.

That makes no sense - Turkey *is* a democracy, and the military coups have historically been used to maintain it as such. And you said they threatened a coup because the President's wife had a head scarf. Which is it? They are supporting coups because of head scarfs, or because joining the EU would make Turkey into a democracy....which it already is, and which the Evil Secularists support?

I don't think any principle on which a state should be founded on, such as secularism or equality, should have the military and a deep state to guarantee.

Oh? The US used the military to guarantee democracy and equality. Had a big war over it in fact. Does that cheapen the value of it?

  Democracy comes first because democracy can change.

What about when someone is interested in subverting the democratic system in order to remove it?

[Berkut]

Where's the evidence of that?  The AKP haven't, ultimately, supported a single law that erodes Turkey's historically secular status.  Except, of course, the attempt to let women wear the head scarf in government property.

So this is all just a completely fake issue, made up out of whole cloth by the hardcore secularists...who actually apparently do not at all care about secularism.

So why call them "hardcore secularists", if in fact they don't care about that issue, and that issue is not even threatened by the "moderate" Islamists?

I love the choices of language here. "Hardcore" secularists. "Moderate" Islamists. When youa re apparently arguing that the issues involved actually have *nothing* to do with Islamism or secularism.

[Berkut]

Quite frankly, is astonishing that Americans of all people are willing to extend such a free pass to Holocaust deniers.

Oh yeah, us Americans and our holocaust Denial. Such a problem over here.

I am always surprised at the Europeans and their desire to give a free pass to the Islamists and their jew killing. Oh wait, no I am not.

See what I did there?

[Berkut]

Note to the dense:

I am NOT saying that Jews give Muslinms a pass because they like to kill jews. Just mocking Alastartes idiotic linking of Americans to holocaust denial because apparently one of us is a little skeptical of the emotional and one-sided portrayal of the issues involved in Turkey.

[Berkut]

Maybe the Islamists are using their "moderacy" as a fig leaf to cover their desire to erode Turkey historically secular status. I don't know, but apparently you guys do, so well that you are comfortable casting this conflict in the starkest possible terms.

Where's the evidence of that?  The AKP haven't, ultimately, supported a single law that erodes Turkey's historically secular status.  Except, of course, the attempt to let women wear the head scarf in government property.

A quick perusal of wiki says that you are wrong, and they have proposed laws estrablishing prayer in school, banning the sale of alcohol and pornography, and of course the headscarf issue, which is rather obviously more symbolic than a simple irrational attempt by the "hardcore secularists" to persecute them.

Now, perhaps wiki is full of shit - it wouldn't be the first time. I claim no expertise on these issues at all, and do NOT claim that the secualrists are even "right" per se. I would claim that the issue is almsot certainly more nuanced than you insist on portraying it, and if in fact I was someone who supported the continuation of democracy, freedom of religion, and the fundamentals of the secular state in Turkey, I would find the rise of populist religious parties very concerning.

[garbon]

Oh yeah, us Americans and our holocaust Denial. Such a problem over here.

Yeah, I was wondering if he accidentally inserted the wrong nationality.