I for one welcome our new European Overlords

[Valmy]

Is it to keep the already wealthy Western nations wealthy in competition with the US/China? If so, yeah, don't dilute yourselves with those poor brown people.

That is sort of what I look at it as.  It is a club of the shrinking (except for France and a few others) and declining Euro countries coming together as an attempt to stay important in the modern world.

[MadImmortalMan]

If we were doing a North American Union we should include France since they own those little islands in Canada.

They should be annexed to Canada immediately for the greater glory of the North American Union.

[Berkut]

If we were doing a North American Union we should include France since they own those little islands in Canada.

They should be annexed to Canada immediately for the greater glory of the North American Union.

You mean the North American North Union, right?

[Eochaid]

It kind of depends on what the point of the Union is.

Is it to keep the already wealthy Western nations wealthy in competition with the US/China? If so, yeah, don't dilute yourselves with those poor brown people.

Or is it something more?

There is more to the EU than that.

BUT we have to try and do it right, which poses a number of problems:

• What are reasonable borders for the EU? What is reasonable? What is "European"?
  
• How can you weld together people and countries that have been at odds with each other for millenia.
  
• What common identity do you build this union on.
  
• You have to make sure the EU can function with more countries (as it is the necessity to achieve unanimity for all important decisions is a major pain in the backside.

Integrating a country like Iceland is easy (once we've adopted Lisbon) as it is a stable democracy with a demographic weight that won't change much.

Turkey on the other hand is less stable, less developed and rises a number of issues (borders etc). Right now I believe that between its institutional reforms, helping countries that recently joined and the general recession, the EU has things to do properly before letting the Turks join.

BTW, why do you think the Turks want to join so badly? Because the EU IS rich, IS stable and IS a guarantee of stability and security. Wealth is a powerful incentive

Kevin

[Berkut]

Of course - that is my point though.

If the purpose of the EU is to keep the wealthy wealthy, then of course they are going to be somewhat reluctant to let Turkey in. Which of course they are - you don't stay wealthy by taking on countries that are not at or above your own level of wealth.

If the purpose of the EU is (at least in part) to create a true European Union for which success is measured by much more than the aggregate wealth of its members, but rather the aggregate well being of the citizens it encompasses, then taking on countries like Turkey makes perfect sense, since it will (presumably) raise their standards of living/quality of life, evn if it is at the expense of some small amount of the same amongst the wealthy club.

The fact that Iceland gets in easily, but isn't sure it wants in, while Turkey is quite sure they want in, but cannot get in, pretty much answers the question of what the EU actually *is*, I think.

[The Brain]

Of course - that is my point though.

If the purpose of the EU is to keep the wealthy wealthy, then of course they are going to be somewhat reluctant to let Turkey in. Which of course they are - you don't stay wealthy by taking on countries that are not at or above your own level of wealth.

If the purpose of the EU is (at least in part) to create a true European Union for which success is measured by much more than the aggregate wealth of its members, but rather the aggregate well being of the citizens it encompasses, then taking on countries like Turkey makes perfect sense, since it will (presumably) raise their standards of living/quality of life, evn if it is at the expense of some small amount of the same amongst the wealthy club.

The fact that Iceland gets in easily, but isn't sure it wants in, while Turkey is quite sure they want in, but cannot get in, pretty much answers the question of what the EU actually *is*, I think.

In a perfect world the purpose of the EU would be to keep the wealthy wealthy. But unfortunately it's not that simple.

[Valmy]

Of course - that is my point though.

If the purpose of the EU is to keep the wealthy wealthy, then of course they are going to be somewhat reluctant to let Turkey in. Which of course they are - you don't stay wealthy by taking on countries that are not at or above your own level of wealth.

If the purpose of the EU is (at least in part) to create a true European Union for which success is measured by much more than the aggregate wealth of its members, but rather the aggregate well being of the citizens it encompasses, then taking on countries like Turkey makes perfect sense, since it will (presumably) raise their standards of living/quality of life, evn if it is at the expense of some small amount of the same amongst the wealthy club.

The fact that Iceland gets in easily, but isn't sure it wants in, while Turkey is quite sure they want in, but cannot get in, pretty much answers the question of what the EU actually *is*, I think.

That wouldn't explain why they let in all those big and poor former Eastern Bloc nations.  There is more to it than that.

[Berkut]

Of course - that is my point though.

If the purpose of the EU is to keep the wealthy wealthy, then of course they are going to be somewhat reluctant to let Turkey in. Which of course they are - you don't stay wealthy by taking on countries that are not at or above your own level of wealth.

If the purpose of the EU is (at least in part) to create a true European Union for which success is measured by much more than the aggregate wealth of its members, but rather the aggregate well being of the citizens it encompasses, then taking on countries like Turkey makes perfect sense, since it will (presumably) raise their standards of living/quality of life, evn if it is at the expense of some small amount of the same amongst the wealthy club.

The fact that Iceland gets in easily, but isn't sure it wants in, while Turkey is quite sure they want in, but cannot get in, pretty much answers the question of what the EU actually *is*, I think.

That wouldn't explain why they let in all those big and poor former Eastern Bloc nations.  There is more to it than that.

Because they want to believe it is one thing, while in fact it is something else?

Hard to make the argument that Poland isn't in Europe, you know.

Although I bet people tried at the time.

Of course it isn't all of one or the other. It is a mix.

[Valmy]

Of course it isn't all of one or the other. It is a mix.

Yep.  The desire of the rich countries to stay rich is definitely a major factor but it is not the entirely what the Union is about.

[Delirium]

Iceland is the worlds 18th largest island and the 2nd largest island in Europe, more than 30 times larger than Gotland (sweden's largest).

I'll bear that in mind when Gotland secedes and asks to join the EU. 

[Sheilbh]

Or is it something more?

It's something a lot more.  Which is why Turkey is still nowhere near ready.  They don't meet almost any of the basic criteria on human rights law or democratic practice.

[Zanza]

If the purpose of the EU is to keep the wealthy wealthy, then of course they are going to be somewhat reluctant to let Turkey in. Which of course they are - you don't stay wealthy by taking on countries that are not at or above your own level of wealth.

Except for the 1995 enlargement (Sweden, Finland, Austria) and perhaps the 1973 enlargement (Denmark), the EU only ever admitted countries that were poorer than average. So it's not that the EU is not willing to lower the average wealth. However, the difference in wealth between Turkey and the average is much larger than in all the other enlargement rounds so it is certainly a factor why Turkey is not in.

evn if it is at the expense of some small amount of the same amongst the wealthy club.

That "small amount" wouldn't be that small in the case of Turkey because the difference is far larger than with any of the earlier enlargements.

The fact that Iceland gets in easily, but isn't sure it wants in, while Turkey is quite sure they want in, but cannot get in, pretty much answers the question of what the EU actually *is*, I think.

Not really. Iceland is just a better fit in virtually every criterion than Turkey.


Anyway, I am not particularly knowledgable about Turkish politics, but according to Tunch Khan on Paradox, most Turks and even the elites don't even want to join the EU anymore.

[Josquius]

Is it to keep the already wealthy Western nations wealthy in competition with the US/China? If so, yeah, don't dilute yourselves with those poor brown people.

That is sort of what I look at it as.  It is a club of the shrinking (except for France and a few others) and declining Euro countries coming together as an attempt to stay important in the modern world.

Thats a bit of a 1970s argument.
The post-colonial trough is long past, European countries are very relevant EU or no.

[Delirium]

Anyway, I am not particularly knowledgable about Turkish politics, but according to Tunch Khan on Paradox, most Turks and even the elites don't even want to join the EU anymore.

I find that extremely hard to believe, unless the sample is made up entirely of islamists.

[Sheilbh]

The fact that Iceland gets in easily, but isn't sure it wants in, while Turkey is quite sure they want in, but cannot get in, pretty much answers the question of what the EU actually *is*, I think.

Iceland is a stable democracy.  Turkey's a country that last experienced a coup in the 90s.  The AKP government's made a lot of progress on free speech and human rights but there are still extensive restrictions on what can be said and even what language it can be said it. 

I'm all for Turkey joining but I think lesson of the last two enlargements was that it needs to be done only when the nations are ready and genuinely meet the criteria.  I think they were rushed due to political criteria.

The truth is Iceland and Norway already meet the criteria to join the EU.  Turkey doesn't.

The big issues I can think of which Turkey isn't meeting the required entry-level standards are freedom of speech, the rule of law (ie. that the military knows their place), the protection of national minorities and freedom of the press.  When the Copenhagen process's criteria's met then, by all means they should joing.  Until then it would be foolish to let them in and further dilute what the EU's trying to achieve.