UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[CountDeMoney]

What I would like to see is a point at which they simply are not necessary, needed, or wanted anymore.

That would require a shitload of government money, certainly more than the $2.4B budget the BIA gets.  And we know how well that would go over.

[Berkut]

What I would like to see is a point at which they simply are not necessary, needed, or wanted anymore.

That would require a shitload of government money, certainly more than the $2.4B budget the BIA gets.  And we know how well that would go over.

Atually, I think shitloads of government money will make the problem even worse.

[CountDeMoney]

What I would like to see is a point at which they simply are not necessary, needed, or wanted anymore.

That would require a shitload of government money, certainly more than the $2.4B budget the BIA gets.  And we know how well that would go over.

Atually, I think shitloads of government money will make the problem even worse.

And we're back to the "pulling themselves up by their own moccasins" again.

[Berkut]

What I would like to see is a point at which they simply are not necessary, needed, or wanted anymore.

That would require a shitload of government money, certainly more than the $2.4B budget the BIA gets.  And we know how well that would go over.

Atually, I think shitloads of government money will make the problem even worse.

And we're back to the "pulling themselves up by their own moccasins" again.

No, we aren't back there because we were never there to begin with, nor are we there now.

[CountDeMoney]

What I would like to see is a point at which they simply are not necessary, needed, or wanted anymore.

That would require a shitload of government money, certainly more than the $2.4B budget the BIA gets.  And we know how well that would go over.

Atually, I think shitloads of government money will make the problem even worse.

And we're back to the "pulling themselves up by their own moccasins" again.

No, we aren't back there because we were never there to begin with, nor are we there now.

OK, tough guy;  you want the Native Americans to improve their lot in life, but you don't want them to have the assistance they need after generations of impoverished isolation.  So what the fuck is anybody going to infer anything from that, other than Clarence Thomism?

[Razgovory]

What I would like to see is a point at which they simply are not necessary, needed, or wanted anymore.

That would require a shitload of government money, certainly more than the $2.4B budget the BIA gets.  And we know how well that would go over.

Atually, I think shitloads of government money will make the problem even worse.

And we're back to the "pulling themselves up by their own moccasins" again.

No, we are back to Berkut's usual theme.  "I don't want my money going to other people".

[alfred russel]

It was the stated policy of the Department of Indian Affairs in Canada for over a century to try and assimilate Indians and make them into regular, normal Canadian citizens.  It was only in the 60s that changed.

I think it's the policy of assimilation which has shown to not work.

That was their stated policy, but they also didn't try very hard.  They allowed the reservations to exist.

Should they have instituted prima noctae too?

[crazy canuck]

I dont know a lot about how US reservations work and so my observations are made on the assumption that they have the same characteristics as those in Canada.

The main reason why reservations have the kind of statistics ot which Berk refers boils down to one problem - property rights.  In the rest of society much of an individuals weath is based on  Real Property.  On a reservation that kind of wealth and access to capital (by obtaining loans secured by Real Property) is not possible because the residents of the reserves dont own the land on which they live as an individual.

Various Native bands in Canada and particularly in the Western Provinces have for a few decades been making progress to solve this fundamental problem of poverty caused by a lack of access to property rights.  Much of the work in this area has centered on two main areas - asserting land claims and working with business to commercialize land with is undisputedly theirs - ie the reserve lands themselves.

The assertion of land claims has forced businesses and governments wishing to develop areas which are claimed to consult with the bands who assert the claim.  Forward thinking businesses wish to have certainty reach agreements with those bands to let the bands in question benefit from the economic development on the lands they assert are theirs.  Obviously the stronger the potential claim is the more incentive a business as to consult and reach agreement with the band.

Commericialization of reserve land is a much more straight forward propostion akin to a developer negotiating with any other property owner.   The only wrinkle is that in this case it is the band not an individual and it has taken some time for the law and the parties to adapt to that new kind of legal relationship.

The elephant in the room however is band managment.  With bands enjoying new sources of revenue - sometimes substantial - there is a question of accountability.  Some groups do this very well but even the best run bands can have difficulty.  Take for example the Nisga'a people.  Perhaps, along with the Musqueam, the most sophisticated and best led peoples who literally locked out the band administrator who had initially agreed to a pipeline crossing their territory.  That episode shows that to obtain certainty businesses dealing with native groups have to make sure the whole community (or at least a good majority) supports the deal.  Which in theory is a good thing but how is an outside business to really be sure of such a thing? 

[Berkut]

OK, tough guy;  you want the Native Americans to improve their lot in life, but you don't want them to have the assistance they need after generations of impoverished isolation.  So what the fuck is anybody going to infer anything from that, other than Clarence Thomism?

You are going to have to address your question to someone else, since I never said I "...don't want them to have the assistance they need after generations of impoverished isolation.".

Find someone else to prop up your strawman.

[CountDeMoney]

OK, tough guy;  you want the Native Americans to improve their lot in life, but you don't want them to have the assistance they need after generations of impoverished isolation.  So what the fuck is anybody going to infer anything from that, other than Clarence Thomism?

You are going to have to address your question to someone else, since I never said I "...don't want them to have the assistance they need after generations of impoverished isolation.".

Find someone else to prop up your strawman.

Honestly, B, where are you going with this whole thing with the Native Americans, anyway?

You say their culture is a dead end, but you say that's not what you're saying.
You say you want them to get out of their lot in life, but you say that's not what you're saying.
Et al.

How about you start a new thread with your premise to the Indian Problem(tm), because right now, as is often your wont in typical Berkutian blizzard posting style, they're all over the place.

[crazy canuck]

It was the stated policy of the Department of Indian Affairs in Canada for over a century to try and assimilate Indians and make them into regular, normal Canadian citizens.  It was only in the 60s that changed.

I think it's the policy of assimilation which has shown to not work.

That was their stated policy, but they also didn't try very hard.  They allowed the reservations to exist.

Should they have instituted prima noctae too?

Yeah Neil doesnt know what he is talking about.  Generations of native children were forceably removed from their homes to attend residential schools where there attempts were made to literally beat the "Indian" out of them. 

Canada and the religious orders who operated those schools are now paying out the largest class action claim in Canadian history to the survivors of that system.

And why did the reserves still exist?  The goal of those residential schools was that after assimilation occurred the government could do away with the Indian Act and use the land for other purposes.

[Jacob]

Yeah, Berkut, it's not quite clear to me where you're going with this. Here's what I've gotten from you:

- You think Native culture on reservations is a failure (looking at poverty and education statistics, amongst other).

- You think the ideal state for Native Americans includes: reservations no longer existing, and Native Americans having similar levels of education, wealth and lifestyle as Americans in general.

- You believe that increased funding is not likely to improve the situation.

- You agreed with me that any solutions to these problems imposed unilaterally (or with insufficient buy-in) by outsiders are bound to fail.

Is there anything I missed?

[Berkut]

Yeah, Berkut, it's not quite clear to me where you're going with this. Here's what I've gotten from you:

- You think Native culture on reservations is a failure (looking at poverty and education statistics, amongst other).

- You think the ideal state for Native Americans includes: reservations no longer existing, and Native Americans having similar levels of education, wealth and lifestyle as Americans in general.

Hmmm, I don't know if I would say that is an ideal state - ideal is a pretty subjective term. I imagine a lot of Native Americans would say their ideal state would be very different.

My point is more that this is ideal state (Which I think it in theory some kind of sovereign and politically independent viable nation within the US) is not attainable. That may be a tragedy, it may even be historically unjust.

But here is the thing - it's not like being an American (Native) is such a damn terrible thing. You don't have to give up your culture (at least no more so than you have already), you don't really have to give up anything that you actually have right now, except this unattainable myth that there could really be a working reservation system that doesn't completely suck for the actual people who have to live there.

- You believe that increased funding is not likely to improve the situation.

No, the problem is systemic. More money is just going to bandaid the problem while providing more reason for the corrupt to maintain the system.

By this I mean more money to maintain reservations - I would have no problem with more money to provide better opportunity, better schooling, better health care, etc., etc.

- You agreed with me that any solutions to these problems imposed unilaterally (or with insufficient buy-in) by outsiders are bound to fail.

Is there anything I missed?

I think the thing that is generally being missed (or rather ignored) is that I am not claiming that I think the government should really do much of anything, at least not in a direct sense. In fact, what I am talking about has been ongoing for a long time, and most Native Americans today are not living in shitty reservations, but rather just going about their lives like the rest of us.

What I am saying is that those that ARE still living on reservations in failed pseudo-states would be better off getting the hell out of there, and simply going about their lives integrated into American society in the same manner many other ethnic cultures integrate into American society.

What I am also saying is that part of the problem with that happening is this notion amongst people that "Native American culture" is somehow still around in the sense that it exists separate from American culture, that it must be protected and restored, and that we should actually spend money, resources, and effort preserving a failed reservation system in order to protect that culture (or even restore it) because we somehow owe it to a bunch of people today as a result of screwing over their ancestors.

But that attitude, IMO, actually just screws over the current people instead, since it has resulted in incredible poverty. It is the triumph of what we wish to be true over what is actually true. We appear to be willing to throw the current generation under the bus in order to make us feel better about what was done to the last 10 generations.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

[crazy canuck]

But here is the thing - it's not like being an American (Native) is such a damn terrible thing. You don't have to give up your culture (at least no more so than you have already), you don't really have to give up anything that you actually have right now, except this unattainable myth that there could really be a working reservation system that doesn't completely suck for the actual people who have to live there.

Why is it unobtainable.  And why, in your view, is a model of self government unobtainable. 

[Berkut]

But here is the thing - it's not like being an American (Native) is such a damn terrible thing. You don't have to give up your culture (at least no more so than you have already), you don't really have to give up anything that you actually have right now, except this unattainable myth that there could really be a working reservation system that doesn't completely suck for the actual people who have to live there.

Why is it unobtainable.  And why, in your view, is a model of self government unobtainable. 

Given that the current system is such a disaster, I would think the burden of proof is on those who claim that it can be fixed, and hence the people living their in poverty should just stick it out until it is fixed.

I don't claim to be an expert on Indian affairs - I am sure there are lots and lots of resources out there discussing how to improve the reservation system.Notably however, the results have been consistent and systemic failure. The only exceptions being very particular cases that are not scalable to the overall problem.

I just note that the results are disastrous - and while I would need to be an aeronautical engineer to tell you how to fix an airplane (or in this case whether it can be fixed, or why it cannot), I don't have to be one to note that the one in question has crashed.