UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[Barrister]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

Except that, in certain circumstances, we promised them we would subsidize them (health and education come to mind).

And I am not arguing that we should stop doing so - far from it.

I am arguing that the system as it stands now in the US (and I should note that I am speaking generally, I am sure there are viable exceptions (Eskimos? for example) to the general observation) sucks for the very people it is supposed to be "protecting".

I don't think we should abrgate any treaties - I do think the general policy goal should be one that recognizes that the long term solution is to continue to integrate Native Americans into US society directly. I disagree that this has not worked - that is patently false, I would suspect that the majority of Native Americans in the US do not live on reservations, for example, and are in fact just typical Americans, like Chinese Americans, or German Americans, or whatever. I am not entirely sure about that, but I supect it is the case. The idea that integration does not work is demonstrably not true.

It was the stated policy of the Department of Indian Affairs in Canada for over a century to try and assimilate Indians and make them into regular, normal Canadian citizens.  It was only in the 60s that changed.

I think it's the policy of assimilation which has shown to not work.

[Neil]

It was the stated policy of the Department of Indian Affairs in Canada for over a century to try and assimilate Indians and make them into regular, normal Canadian citizens.  It was only in the 60s that changed.

I think it's the policy of assimilation which has shown to not work.

That was their stated policy, but they also didn't try very hard.  They allowed the reservations to exist.

[CountDeMoney]

Berkut is a "pick themselves up by their own moccasins" kind of guy.

I don't think you could have more thoroughly missed my point if you had tried.

Of course, I am also pretty sure you did in fact try...

We all know how "they" came to that - what is the better question is how to get them out of it.

And the answer is pretty obvious - the same way all the Native Americans who are NOT living in poverty on a reservation got out of it.

Sounds to me you're equating them with ghetto-marooned Dazzling Urbanites, Clarence.  If only they applied themselves, etc.

[MadImmortalMan]

If the gubbermint is gonna give out land, I want to pick which piece I get.

[Berkut]

Nope, not the case at all - for them, or for the your dazzling urbanites.

[Admiral Yi]

Doesn't help that BIA falls under the DOI, consistently stuffed with political appointees.

I imagine it also doesn't help much that Indians get a hiring preference at BIA.

[The Minsky Moment]

Does this mean the UN will now endorse the Zionist claim to the Solomonic Kingdom?

[MadImmortalMan]

Does this mean the UN will now endorse the Zionist claim to the Solomonic Kingdom?

Nah, the UN votes down anything Jew-related.

[CountDeMoney]

Doesn't help that BIA falls under the DOI, consistently stuffed with political appointees.

I imagine it also doesn't help much that Indians get a hiring preference at BIA.

Not real Indians, though.  Liberal ivy league elitist Indians. Probably Muslims, too.  With no birth certificates.

[Razgovory]

How did we come to the understanding that their culture is a "failure"?

That's not what he said.  He said preserving the reservations system has been a failure.  Unless Indian culture = reservations, you misread him.

Not that I would really argue with the contention that American Indian culture is a failure.

I would not agree with that at all - Amish culture works. Does Native American culture?

The Amish have a perfectly viable and working social, poltiical, and economic system that functions quite well within the overall US culture. How is that comparable to Native American culture, which is clearly NOT functional in any meaningful sense?

The Amish farm, produce goods, engage in commerce, vote, raise families, work, are productive, etc., etc.

The Native Americans who live on reservations do not engage in activities that are culturally meaningful in the sense that it is preserving some distinct culture that is actually functional separate from the overall culture they exist in, or even as a subset of that culture.

I don't think the US should pass any laws taking away reservations or anything like that, but I do think it the right direction is to convince as many Native Americans as possible that their best option is to integrate into US society as a distinct cultural and ethnic group that functions as a part of the whole, like any other ethnic group in America.

I'm getting the impression he's saying their culture has been a failure.

[11B4V]

How did we come to the understanding that their culture is a "failure"?

That's not what he said.  He said preserving the reservations system has been a failure.  Unless Indian culture = reservations, you misread him.

Not that I would really argue with the contention that American Indian culture is a failure.

I would not agree with that at all - Amish culture works. Does Native American culture?

The Amish have a perfectly viable and working social, poltiical, and economic system that functions quite well within the overall US culture. How is that comparable to Native American culture, which is clearly NOT functional in any meaningful sense?

The Amish farm, produce goods, engage in commerce, vote, raise families, work, are productive, etc., etc.

The Native Americans who live on reservations do not engage in activities that are culturally meaningful in the sense that it is preserving some distinct culture that is actually functional separate from the overall culture they exist in, or even as a subset of that culture.

I don't think the US should pass any laws taking away reservations or anything like that, but I do think it the right direction is to convince as many Native Americans as possible that their best option is to integrate into US society as a distinct cultural and ethnic group that functions as a part of the whole, like any other ethnic group in America.

I'm getting the impression he's saying their culture has been a failure.

Sure it does.....

[CountDeMoney]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

[Neil]

Berkut thinks if only they applied themselves, they wouldn't have to live like that.

If they didn't live on a reservation, they wouldn't have to live like that.

[Ed Anger]

So that is where my dell boxes go to.

[DGuller]

How did we come to the understanding that their culture is a "failure"?

Any civilization that doesn't have horseback riding researched by 1500 AD has to rank as a failure.