UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[Oexmelin]

We could test Berkut or Grumbler's ideas on another historical anachronism, like Rhode Island. If it works, it should convince Indians to get on with the scheme.

[Ancient Demon]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

[Tonitrus]

Some of the way Canada has dealt with the First Nations, notably in B.C, the Nisga'a for example, seem to work cordially for both sides...and that agreement was only concluded in 2000.  But that is also an area that hadn't really been trampled by white settlers.

There are some tribes/reservations in the U.S. that I think could persist(even if not too well), the Navajo for example...but there are also countless tiny reservations that are simply not viable/sustainable, in terms of economics and (probably) population.  But also, our history was ignoring the treaties we signed, and shoving/squeezing them onto nonviable lands.  Also, some of the local tribal politics approach a criminal level that would not be tolerated anywhere else...I thank casinos for this, in large part...but then, I also recognize that without the casinos, most of these tribes would already be gone, or far worse off.

Interestingly, when I traveled through the Navajo lands, there were no casinos(granted it would be rather remote to capture that market), and alcohol was officially illegal (not sure how successful that law really is though).

But on the other hand, doing what would be the "just" thing in most of these cases would simply be bad for the U.S. as a whole.  But, being that treaties that the U.S. signs are supposed to have Constitutional force, is doing the right thing just saying "fuck 'em"?

I don't now if Berkut's solution would be the right one...but then I think all that exist are a myriad of bad (for somebody) options.


Also, interesting, as far as I am aware, there are no reservations in Alaska (with one of the largest native populations)...but there is a confusing system of Native Corporations that seem to control a series of economic interests in the Alaska bush.

[Tonitrus]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

I would tend to agree, except that in many cases in the U.S., I believe subsidies are actually spelled out in the treaties we signed with them.

[Barrister]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

Except that, in certain circumstances, we promised them we would subsidize them (health and education come to mind).

[CountDeMoney]

I can tell you that saying "well the answer to the Indian problem is we should turn them into non-Indians" is the same, failed, answer that we as white Europeans have been saying for literally centuries.  And it didn't work for all those centuries, and completely ignores what Indian themselves want.

Stands With Legal Gowns speaks the truth.  Berkut talks of crazy talk, he has no medicine.

[Valmy]

But often the land is theirs through treaty rights.  Nothing magical about it.  The size of this land was (often unilaterally) reduced - as the case of the Black Hills - and the courts have often recognized that this was illegal.  Following this recognition of prior legal basis to the land that was taken (and neither compensated nor returned), at least some involvement is allowed with sacred sites.

It is all within the legal systems of the last 150 years, it was just later recognized as not entirely constitutional in the case of the American Indian tribes.

Yeah I do not think it is too much to ask to abide by our treaty obligations.

[katmai]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

Except that, in certain circumstances, we promised them we would subsidize them (health and education come to mind).

Like it would be the first time we broke our promises

[Tonitrus]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

Except that, in certain circumstances, we promised them we would subsidize them (health and education come to mind).

Like it would be the first time we broke our promises

"And the red man is right, to expect a little from you
Promise and then follow through, America" 

[CountDeMoney]

LULZ, I GOT IT IN FIRST

[11B4V]

Him out of Firewater.

[viper37]

The thing is that constant harping about ancient insults has never produced peace and harmony in a society. Ignoring historical oppression is a universal in all cases of reconciliation in world history.

but something has to be given in return. The Jews ignored Germany's oppression after several payments to Israel and after the international community sorta agreed to let them occupy Palestine and create their own Jewish state.

just like the Allies forgave Germany after the Nazis were hanged.  Or just like we started talking with Russia once it became Russia again.

But would you suggest we should make peace right now with Iran and North Korea, let North Korea reunite with South Korea (even if the South doesn't want to)?

[Berkut]

Yet they do not wish to be assimilated into the wider American (or Canadian) culture, even if that means they are poorer and have a lower standard of living.

Fine. All I ask is that the government stop subsidizing their separateness.

Except that, in certain circumstances, we promised them we would subsidize them (health and education come to mind).

And I am not arguing that we should stop doing so - far from it.

I am arguing that the system as it stands now in the US (and I should note that I am speaking generally, I am sure there are viable exceptions (Eskimos? for example) to the general observation) sucks for the very people it is supposed to be "protecting".

I don't think we should abrgate any treaties - I do think the general policy goal should be one that recognizes that the long term solution is to continue to integrate Native Americans into US society directly. I disagree that this has not worked - that is patently false, I would suspect that the majority of Native Americans in the US do not live on reservations, for example, and are in fact just typical Americans, like Chinese Americans, or German Americans, or whatever. I am not entirely sure about that, but I supect it is the case. The idea that integration does not work is demonstrably not true.

[Viking]

The thing is that constant harping about ancient insults has never produced peace and harmony in a society. Ignoring historical oppression is a universal in all cases of reconciliation in world history.

but something has to be given in return. The Jews ignored Germany's oppression after several payments to Israel and after the international community sorta agreed to let them occupy Palestine and create their own Jewish state.

just like the Allies forgave Germany after the Nazis were hanged.  Or just like we started talking with Russia once it became Russia again.

But would you suggest we should make peace right now with Iran and North Korea, let North Korea reunite with South Korea (even if the South doesn't want to)?

I'm by no mean suggesting that present oppression should be ignored but rather that focussing on previous oppression rather than todays conditions when dealing with the issues of today will only be harmful. You first end the conflict and then you stop letting the dead conflict rule your life. Remember and forgive if you will.

[Jacob]

As long as any action is predicated on "we've figured out how to solve your problems, here's what we're going to do..." without legitimate consultation with and popular support from the various Native American Nations, then it is bound to fail and cause misery IMO.