UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[Darth Wagtaros]

We could test Berkut or Grumbler's ideas on another historical anachronism, like Rhode Island. If it works, it should convince Indians to get on with the scheme.

I didn't think RI was a historical anachronism?

[Berkut]

And that is the crux of my point as well - current conditions for Native Americans in the USA are a mess *because* we insist on looking at them in the context of a history that is gone.

Current Native Americans are not oppressed...except in the practical sense that they are poor, poorly educated, and stuck on reservations that do not work to provide them with an equivalent lifestyle of other Americans because of this insistence that we should maintain this fiction of "sovereign nations".

My entire point is that the "solution" those that say "Hey, we don't want to be integrated into American society! We want our own, Native American society and culture that is independent of the US, and should be created as a result of the treaties you guys kept making and breaking!" are looking for is not possible. It cannot happen.

Continuing to pretend that it can happen when it cannot is the reason we still have Native Americans living on crappy reservations. Note that there are also plenty of Native Americans in the US who are living off the reservations as US citizens. I would argue that they are not terribly oppressed such that having them live on reservations is a needed solution to their dire circumstances.

I get the objection - what about the people who do NOT want to be just another American citizen?

My answer: Sorry. But the alternative you are looking for is simply not possible in the continental US. Maybe it is in Canada, or Australia, or Alaska. But it isn't possible here, even if the US government would stop screwing them over by not honoring old treaties.

[Razgovory]

I can tell you that saying "well the answer to the Indian problem is we should turn them into non-Indians" is the same, failed, answer that we as white Europeans have been saying for literally centuries.  And it didn't work for all those centuries, and completely ignores what Indian themselves want.

Stands With Legal Gowns speaks the truth.  Berkut talks of crazy talk, he has no medicine.

Typically Berkut is all for individualism.  I guess just not for other people.

[Berkut]

As long as any action is predicated on "we've figured out how to solve your problems, here's what we're going to do..." without legitimate consultation with and popular support from the various Native American Nations, then it is bound to fail and cause misery IMO.

Yes, this is most certainly true.

[viper37]

Current Native Americans are not oppressed...except in the practical sense that they are poor, poorly educated, and stuck on reservations that do not work to provide them with an equivalent lifestyle of other Americans because of this insistence that we should maintain this fiction of "sovereign nations".

but how did they came to that?  This is what matters, if you want to correct the situation.  Ignoring how you arrive at a particular situation today is asking for disaster while trying to find a solution.

[grumbler]

As long as any action is predicated on "we've figured out how to solve your problems, here's what we're going to do..." without legitimate consultation with and popular support from the various Native American Nations, then it is bound to fail and cause misery IMO.

True.  That's been one of the big problems in the past; tribal leadership that lacks legitimate consultation with, and popular support from, their various Native American Nations, and thus was (and is) bound to fail and has caused misery.

The myth that Native American Nations still exist per se is also the problem, as is the better-known and quite shameful problem that the BIA has traditionally been the most corrupt and inefficient US government agency, even when the US was honestly trying to meet its treaty obligations.

[Razgovory]

Well except for the Navy.

[CountDeMoney]

As long as any action is predicated on "we've figured out how to solve your problems, here's what we're going to do..." without legitimate consultation with and popular support from the various Native American Nations, then it is bound to fail and cause misery IMO.

True.  That's been one of the big problems in the past; tribal leadership that lacks legitimate consultation with, and popular support from, their various Native American Nations, and thus was (and is) bound to fail and has caused misery.

The myth that Native American Nations still exist per se is also the problem, as is the better-known and quite shameful problem that the BIA has traditionally been the most corrupt and inefficient US government agency, even when the US was honestly trying to meet its treaty obligations.

Doesn't help that BIA falls under the DOI, consistently stuffed with political appointees.

[Berkut]

Current Native Americans are not oppressed...except in the practical sense that they are poor, poorly educated, and stuck on reservations that do not work to provide them with an equivalent lifestyle of other Americans because of this insistence that we should maintain this fiction of "sovereign nations".

but how did they came to that?  This is what matters, if you want to correct the situation.  Ignoring how you arrive at a particular situation today is asking for disaster while trying to find a solution.

I disagree, in this case.

We all know how "they" came to that - what is the better question is how to get them out of it.

And the answer is pretty obvious - the same way all the Native Americans who are NOT living in poverty on a reservation got out of it.

If there is an answer that can actually preserve their "culture" in some meaningful fashion while keeping them living on reservations, I am all ears, but what *relevant* history tells us is that that has been an abject failure at providing Native Americans with a decent standard of living.

[Razgovory]

How did we come to the understanding that their culture is a "failure"?

[dps]

Interestingly, when I traveled through the Navajo lands, there were no casinos

Not sure how it is now, but as I understand it, traditionally the Navajo economy was based on stealing stuff from the Hopi.

[derspiess]

How did we come to the understanding that their culture is a "failure"?

That's not what he said.  He said preserving the reservations system has been a failure.  Unless Indian culture = reservations, you misread him.

Not that I would really argue with the contention that American Indian culture is a failure.

[Barrister]

And that is the crux of my point as well - current conditions for Native Americans in the USA are a mess *because* we insist on looking at them in the context of a history that is gone.

Current Native Americans are not oppressed...except in the practical sense that they are poor, poorly educated, and stuck on reservations that do not work to provide them with an equivalent lifestyle of other Americans because of this insistence that we should maintain this fiction of "sovereign nations".

My entire point is that the "solution" those that say "Hey, we don't want to be integrated into American society! We want our own, Native American society and culture that is independent of the US, and should be created as a result of the treaties you guys kept making and breaking!" are looking for is not possible. It cannot happen.

What is the basis of your belief that having self-governing first nation communities "cannot happen"?

[CountDeMoney]

Berkut is a "pick themselves up by their own moccasins" kind of guy.

[Berkut]

Berkut is a "pick themselves up by their own moccasins" kind of guy.

I don't think you could have more thoroughly missed my point if you had tried.

Of course, I am also pretty sure you did in fact try...