Personal life and work balance question

[Sheilbh]

I have to point out this isn't a gay / straight issue either.

Indeed.  I'd add that I think the viability of 'hiring a nanny' depends on where you are.  I imagine the cost of hiring a nanny in London would exclude even the vast majority of successful very well-paid lawyers.  Obviously it's best to have good childcare (and lots of companies here help pay for it) but a live-in, 24 hour trained and accredited nanny is something that's way beyond most families.

[Jacob]

A wild guess at the numbers employed in Big Law and high pressure Wall Street.

I don't know what you're basing your claim that parenting invariably creates emergencies that parents cannot ignore on.

You figure most people would ignore the funeral of a parent?

Not a kid, I know, but still something that falls under "accomodation".

[Jacob]

Then there's also the issue of the nature of the business, which is of course related to the issue about burden sharing.  Should a firm expect a parent to take off to tend to Jake's ear infection if it means a missed deadline or a lost sale?  I think it's perfectly reasonable for an employer to say we expect parents to work through that at crunch time.

I actually did have a couple of ear infections as a kid. They kind of sucked.

My position, but as an employee and as a manager - and as a key stakeholder should any of my start up shenanigans work out - is that family emergencies are to be accommodated. The simple fact is that you're able to get more from your people if they know you have their back. A company is better off if it has happy employees and without pissy whiners like Marty.

[DGuller]

I refuse to consider an act that perpetuates the species as a "lifestyle choice".

Hahahah, how did I know it will come down to that! Just an inkling. 

You are not being hired by your employer to "perpetuate the species".

What about jury duty (or pogrom duty, in your case)?  Should the employee picked for jury duty get passed over for promotion, because he wasn't smart enough to get off during voir dire?  From the employer's point of view, it makes sense to punish employees who get on jury duty, but that would be a terrible thing for the legal system and our society in general.

[Malthus]

OK, you've tricked me into arguing an absolute, just like a tricky Jew lawyer would.  Though I would like to point out in passing that there's no law of physics that says such and such family emergency requires immediate attention or that a parent cannot stay at work.  Those are choices.

I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as a family emergency that should be accomodated.  Marty might, but he hasn't so far in this thread.  What I'm arguing, and what I thought Marty was too, is that a working father or mother's absence from the work place can and does impose burdens on their coworkers, and that this burden is disproportionately borne by coworkers without children of their own, since they are always making deposits but never making  withdrawals.

So you are making a "fairness" argument. I was making an argument from the POV of the *employer* (who is only going to care about "fairness" vs. other employees if it impacts the bottom line somehow). From the employer's POV, what matter is - in offering "accomodation" to parents (thus retaining their services), is it likely to drive away the Martys who are pissed off at such "unfairness"? Which matters more to the employer - parents, or Marty (or Martys?)

Even assuming that we give not a shit about the employer and only care about "fairness" in some abstract sense, I doubt there is a real concern here. I question the notion that those without kids will "never make withdrawals".

First, even those who have no kids can have family emergencies. I bring up the situation of caring for aged parents because it is apropos to myself - my secretary had to take some time off because her aging parents were in a car accident and can no longer take care of themselves - she had to find a home for them and arrange their affairs. This was a big "withdrawal".

Second, as I pointed out above, people's situations can change. I myself lacked a kid until my late 30s. Up till them I'd been making no "withdrawals".

Then there's also the issue of the nature of the business, which is of course related to the issue about burden sharing.  Should a firm expect a parent to take off to tend to Jake's ear infection if it means a missed deadline or a lost sale?  I think it's perfectly reasonable for an employer to say we expect parents to work through that at crunch time.

There is always going to be a trade-off with accomodation. If I had a trial comming up, it had better be a real major emergency for me to cancel it. But if I was forced to choose between dealing with an honest to god major life emergency concerning my kid and my work, I'd choose the kid every time - albeit obvioulsly such events are going to be extremely rare. Honestly, I'd have little respect for an employee under me who chose differently, and if my employer demanded differently, I'd choose another employer.

[Sheilbh]

I think the view of a career matters too.  The truth is that at the start of your career you'll be making lots of deposits - I have friends who are trainee solicitors who've had to work 26 hour days - at the end you're not really making many withdrawals either.  Unless someone has another kid every couple of years then for most people the period of 'withrdawals' is limited.

As BB says it's not a gay straight thing and as Malthus says it's not necessarily about kids either.  I'd say the real dichotomy is between humans and sociopaths.

[Barrister]

I have to point out this isn't a gay / straight issue either.

Indeed.  I'd add that I think the viability of 'hiring a nanny' depends on where you are.  I imagine the cost of hiring a nanny in London would exclude even the vast majority of successful very well-paid lawyers.  Obviously it's best to have good childcare (and lots of companies here help pay for it) but a live-in, 24 hour trained and accredited nanny is something that's way beyond most families.

It's certainly an option here.  We may even do it once my wife goes back to work.  Typically the nanny is brought in from a foreign country.  You have to follow all applicable laws so they get paid a salary that is at least minimum wage, but as a live-in nanny you get to deduct reasonable food and board from their wages.  The "trained and accredited" part is pretty basic though - no criminal record and some very basic qualifications.  BUt then again we didn't get any particualr training before becoming parents either.

But the problem is a nanny is NOT available 24/7.  They get to work set hours.  They get holidays.  They can also become sick, or need to go to the doctors.  If we got a nanny (instead of a day home) I don't think things would be any easier or more difficult then they are now.

[Malthus]

I have to point out this isn't a gay / straight issue either.

Indeed.  I'd add that I think the viability of 'hiring a nanny' depends on where you are.  I imagine the cost of hiring a nanny in London would exclude even the vast majority of successful very well-paid lawyers.  Obviously it's best to have good childcare (and lots of companies here help pay for it) but a live-in, 24 hour trained and accredited nanny is something that's way beyond most families.

It's certainly an option here.  We may even do it once my wife goes back to work.  Typically the nanny is brought in from a foreign country.  You have to follow all applicable laws so they get paid a salary that is at least minimum wage, but as a live-in nanny you get to deduct reasonable food and board from their wages.  The "trained and accredited" part is pretty basic though - no criminal record and some very basic qualifications.  BUt then again we didn't get any particualr training before becoming parents either.

But the problem is a nanny is NOT available 24/7.  They get to work set hours.  They get holidays.  They can also become sick, or need to go to the doctors.  If we got a nanny (instead of a day home) I don't think things would be any easier or more difficult then they are now.

We had a nanny - actually, a relation of my wife's from Ukraine. She lived in the room you guys slept in.

She was amazing. I wish very much we could have sponsored her to stay permanently. 

[HVC]

She was amazing.

?

[Jacob]

How complicated is the nanny sponsoring process? Where do you start?

[CountDeMoney]

How complicated is the nanny sponsoring process? Where do you start?

Yes, I would like to know as well.

[Barrister]

How complicated is the nanny sponsoring process? Where do you start?

Yes, I would like to know as well.

Jake, I'm not quite certain.  I believe you generally go with an agency who sets most of it up.  My brother's fiance came over to Canada as a nanny, so I've asked her about it and that's where I get all of my information.  Now the advice she gave me was that it was a lot easier to get a nanny who was already in the country, but for whom the first family didn't work out for one reason or another.  It seems it saves you a lot of the immigration problems because it's already been done.

In your case you might have relatives of your wife who you want to bring over though, so I don't know.

And Malthus - because she was family she probably would have been "on call" all the time.  My sister-in-law mentioned though that she certainly took her days off (in particular once she started wanting to spend time with my brother).

[Martinus]

But is that the standard at Marty's company?  It seems like it isn't but he wishes it was or something (or maybe they wish it was but Polish law requires them to have certain policies in this area).

He wishes it was the standard, because it would give him the edge over someone in the company who has children and whom Marty is apparently unable to get ahead of. Instead he bitches about it.

Not really, no. The only people ahead of me are either childless, or the partner I mentioned, or my boss who has a son herself but says people like this should hire a nanny (actually, she did go from a negotiations room to a hospital when she was giving birth if I remember correctly). It's my lazy underlings that I am annoyed with.

[CountDeMoney]

How complicated is the nanny sponsoring process? Where do you start?

Yes, I would like to know as well.

"Uh...where's the child?"
"Don't worry about it."

*points at litter box*

[DGuller]

How complicated is the nanny sponsoring process? Where do you start?

Yes, I would like to know as well.