Time for debt forgiveness?

[Tamas]

We can easily be back to a regular theme here: definition of middle class. Rising living standards does not necessary equal rise in middle class as a political group.

It is hard to for me to get a defintion on it... But it is a slice of society which was present in the West for centuries, and missing from the East, like, even now, and many historians attribute this as the chief reason of much slower political development in East Europe, altough I am not exactly sure how much this is a chicken-egg question.

[Martinus]

Also, regarding the economy, I think that the middle class was the driving force behind all democratization processes, as well as economic developments. And redistribution hurts the middle class. It benefits the rch and the poor, while locking them both in their strata, at the expense of the middle, and due to the historical importance of the middle class, this hinders progress.

You got it all wrong. Middle class is not a class that is closed off to fluctuations - the idea behind supporting middle class is not that one should make the life better for the existing middle class per se, but making sure that it's the middle class (and not the rich or the poor) that represents a significant majority of the people in any society.

Hence helping the poor to become the middle class is how one helps the middle class.

And no, it is also not about raising the standard of living, at least not per se - that's a side effect of this.

Middle class is not defined as much by what it owns, but about the opportunities it has - it's a class of people who have sustainable income, access to education and to social and professional mobility. That is why redistribution through education or safety nets for people who fall out of the loop is how you support the growth of the middle class.

Seriously, you make me despondent sometimes. You are a smart guy (certainly smarter than most people who come out of the Eastern Bloc) and you are young enough not to be raised under communism - but yet you often have these boneheaded, totally anti-social, anti-community ideas that are the telltale signs of homo sovieticus.

[Tamas]

I am fine with you disagreeing with me.

What is bollocks is to say that my anti-socialism views are because I am a typical eastern bloc-er

I am sorry but that is backwards, and you of all people should know that best. I mean, over here, heavy state inverventionalism is a given in every party's agenda, except for the ones who never go above 1%.

And my views are not anti-community. Quite the contrary. I wish for a self-sustaining community, where the state guards the status quo via laws, and as little steering as necessary.

If anything, these views think more of a community, of society, than your socialism.
It might not work precisely because of that. People may indeed be sheep.

So I am quite content seeing various interest groups taking the uniforms of various ideologies, then duking it out under those banners for the huge power the taxpayers' money, and their rather free hand in spending it, gives them. All the while maintaining the shady parts of the status quo, since while they appear enemies, they are in fact the same leadership caste, and any meaningful change on how things go would see their power decline. Look at the shit the US parties are doing, if you want a western-enough example.

I am growing too old to be idealistic. I now just seek to exploit the system, not change it.

But, to go back more on topic, all, all that does not mean that we are living under ideal economic theories. The global economy is an organic thing, it is not "something", it is the mirage you see on the wall, made by the combined desires and actions of all the individuals on the planet. Reyling on a few central bankers and politicans to micromanage how it develops is crazy and hopeless, and this is now more evident in  Europe than it ever was.

[The Minsky Moment]

more importantly, is it a coincidence, that the lower the weight of bearucracy (too lazy to check the spelling ), the better for development?

Japan, Singapore, China . . .

[Zanza]

The Singaporean bureaucracy seemed to be very efficient and streamlined when I was there. Certainly more efficient that American immigration & work permit procedures. No idea about redtape for corporations.

[grumbler]

I don't see why all debt can't be forgiven;  after all, it benefits the debtor, and it's not like the lenders--who aren't being paid at the moment anyway--aren't making payroll.

It's all make-believe money.

This would wipe out the very savers who society should want to encourage, and reward the very over-spenders who should be punished for their over-spending.

It would be great for those holding real estate and stocks, I suppose.

[CountDeMoney]

I don't see why all debt can't be forgiven;  after all, it benefits the debtor, and it's not like the lenders--who aren't being paid at the moment anyway--aren't making payroll.

It's all make-believe money.

This would wipe out the very savers who society should want to encourage, and reward the very over-spenders who should be punished for their over-spending.

It would be great for those holding real estate and stocks, I suppose.

I dunno...I mean, say you're hard up for lunch, and I loan you $20.  You needed it, but say you wind up not paying me back.  Now, not repaying me back doesn't impact my ability to go on with life. If it did, I wouldn't have loaned it to you.

Of course, welshing on a loan is a different matter, but that doesn't impact my ability to live without that $20.  It just makes you a dick, and me a sucker.  But that's got nothing to do with the existence ( or non-existence) of the money.

[HVC]

But would you keep loaning 20 bucks to other people if you knew the occurances of you not getting paid back was going to increase?

[CountDeMoney]

But would you keep loaning 20 bucks to other people if you knew the occurances of you not getting paid back was going to increase?

I don't know;  is she hot?

[HVC]

But would you keep loaning 20 bucks to other people if you knew the occurances of you not getting paid back was going to increase?

I don't know;  is she hot?

lol I said loan, not pay by the hour

[CountDeMoney]

But she's working her way through school.

[HVC]

But she's working her way through school.

I knew (know still I guess) a few strippers working for school. Funny how they never finish school. Cokes a bad thing. Shame too, one was the sister of a friend (awkward story of how I found out she was a stripper). Smart, hot, and could have done well for herself.

[CountDeMoney]

But she's working her way through school.

I knew (know still I guess) a few strippers working for school. Funny how they never finish school.

It is funny because it's true. 

[grumbler]

I dunno...I mean, say you're hard up for lunch, and I loan you $20.  You needed it, but say you wind up not paying me back.  Now, not repaying me back doesn't impact my ability to go on with life. If it did, I wouldn't have loaned it to you.

Of course, welshing on a loan is a different matter, but that doesn't impact my ability to live without that $20.  It just makes you a dick, and me a sucker.  But that's got nothing to do with the existence ( or non-existence) of the money.

But you are arguing for the forgiveness of all loans.  Money you have in the bank is money you have loaned the bank (and they have, in turn, loaned others).  If all debts are forgiven, all those loans are wiped out, including the loan of your money to the bank.

The people hurt by this are the people who have saved against the day they need money.  The beneficiaries are those who spent other people's money.  Which behavior do we want to reward?

[crazy canuck]

Only on Languish would a loan and deposit be mixed up so that Grumber could argue a semantic point.