More Breivik Trial Idiocy.

[Viking]

I don't know much about Norway (this is quite intentional) but for Sweden the following is true.

The mass immigration of uneducated people from strange cultures has always been at odds with the opinion of large parts of the population. The exact numbers are difficult to gauge since there never was a referendum and it's never been the main issue in a general election.

Questioning the wisdom of said mass immigration is and has been taboo. If you do you are branded a racist. Cracks in the taboo has begun to appear the past 10 years though.

Our PM has stated that only barbarism is native to Sweden, everything else has come from abroad. Considering Sweden's history and contributions to society this is an obvious lie, and it is also a lie that isn't appreciated by people with nationalist tendencies.

In short, the idea of a conspiracy may possibly be wrong, but if so it's not very wrong. What's problematic about ABB's ideas isn't that mass immigration of the kind we have is retarded (it probably is) but that the answer to it is terrorism.

This is pretty much Breiviks self justification only with conspiracy theories and murderous intent excluded. I don't think there is anything controversial about saying that you can't have western civilization without western ideas and values. I don't think there is any debate that the European approach to immigrants, guest workers and asylum seekers has not, in general, resulted in them adopting these ideas and values and in certain groups (people from tribal muslim societies) participation in society is falling while the proporting of the population is increasing. Here Breivik sees malicious intent while I see incompetence. Strangely Sheilbh sees malicious intent in pointing these things out and suggesting that something might be done.

The fact that I feel the need to point out that this "something" is to be more like the americans when it comes to naturalisation (putting me in the same camp as Gordon Brown on this issue) suggests to myself that I am worried about being branded a racist.

[Razgovory]

I can't speak for Britain, but the US has long seen arguments that immigrants are undermining Democratic ideals and civilization.  They were always bullshit.  I suspect Britain has seen such arguments in it's past as well with Catholic Irish immigrants to England and Jews from Eastern Europe.

[Legbiter]

I wish the police had just shot him instead of taking him alive.

[Tamas]

I can't speak for Britain, but the US has long seen arguments that immigrants are undermining Democratic ideals and civilization.  They were always bullshit.  I suspect Britain has seen such arguments in it's past as well with Catholic Irish immigrants to England and Jews from Eastern Europe.

But those were never of cultural differences of this scale.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes, but the largest and most prominent group are sephardic jews who fled arab persecution after the creation of Israel to France.

They left Algeria after Algeria achieved independence.

[Admiral Yi]

I think these sort of views are a bit more insidious and suspicious when they're targeted against one group.

Is there evidence of a double standard?  Are non-Muslim immigrant groups, engaging in roughly the same pattern of culturally unacceptable behaviors, being given a pass?

[Razgovory]

I can't speak for Britain, but the US has long seen arguments that immigrants are undermining Democratic ideals and civilization.  They were always bullshit.  I suspect Britain has seen such arguments in it's past as well with Catholic Irish immigrants to England and Jews from Eastern Europe.

But those were never of cultural differences of this scale.

Really?  The people at the time thought so.  Catholics and Jews have largely been accepted in American Culture.  There was a great deal of resistance to that before.  At least in the US.  There were genuine beliefs that Catholics were a Fifth Column to bring about the end of American Democracy and bring about Papal Rule.  Jews were often seen as radicals who planned to undermine the Republic with Socialism, Communism and Anarchism.  Many of the statements made about Jews and Catholics in the 19th and early 20th century are indistinguishable from those made about Muslims in the 21st.

I believe there were similar ideas floating around Britain.

In the US resistance to these perceived interlopers was fierce and often violent.  The second incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan (which was not a small origination, it had several million members) was more concerned with Jews, Catholics and suspected radicals then they were blacks.  It was refounded by men who had just murdered a Jewish man.

[Eddie Teach]

Alternatively, you could admit to the probability that its neither ie bollocks.

Alternatively, I could stand on my head while juggling pumpkins.

Please do, and post a video online for us.

[Valmy]

In the US resistance to these perceived interlopers was fierce and often violent.

You talk like the KKK is some sort of mainstream organization that can be used as evidence of general sentiment.

[Barrister]

In the US resistance to these perceived interlopers was fierce and often violent.

You talk like the KKK is some sort of mainstream organization that can be used as evidence of general sentiment.

Wasn't it fairly mainstream in the 1920s?  Wiki said it had 4-5 million members at its peak, which would be a noticeable percentage of the entire country.

[Valmy]

Wasn't it fairly mainstream in the 1920s?  Wiki said it had 4-5 million members at its peak, which would be a noticeable percentage of the entire country.

That was its height thanks to a certain movie but even then it was considered an extreme organization.  There was certainly anti-immigrant feeling but there was also lots of pro-immigrant feeling and those pro-immigrant interests won elections and enjoyed much more support than the explicitely anti-immigrant ones.

[The Larch]

Valmy, even if that was true, the issue still carried itself over time. I mean, JFK had to face oposition in the 60s for being a Catholic.

[Valmy]

Valmy, even if that was true, the issue still carried itself over time. I mean, JFK had to face oposition in the 60s for being a Catholic.

Yes but largely in the South where there were, at the time, few Catholic immigrants, or Texas where Catholicism was associated with Mexico (and the explanation for all its backwardsness) rather than immigration.

[The Larch]

Valmy, even if that was true, the issue still carried itself over time. I mean, JFK had to face oposition in the 60s for being a Catholic.

Yes but largely in the South where there were, at the time, few Catholic immigrants, or Texas where Catholicism was associated with Mexico (and the explanation for all its backwardsness) rather than immigration.

Just as in Europe, where plenty of vitriol comes from people who live in places where they've never seen an inmigrant in their lives.

[Viking]

Valmy, even if that was true, the issue still carried itself over time. I mean, JFK had to face oposition in the 60s for being a Catholic.

Yes but largely in the South where there were, at the time, few Catholic immigrants, or Texas where Catholicism was associated with Mexico (and the explanation for all its backwardsness) rather than immigration.

Al Smith might disagree.