Should voters be required to show photo ID?

[MadBurgerMaker]

We've had similar laws in this country before... Often in the same states that try to push these voter ID cards now.  Funny that.

We have similar laws in this country right now, guy.  In Indiana, for example:

http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2401.htm

[crazy canuck]

Ok, so in Indiana people have to pay for the right to vote.  Lets all follow them off the cliff.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Ok, so in Indiana people have to pay for the right to vote.  Lets all follow them off the cliff.

lolwut

Info on how to get your free photo ID card: http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2625.htm

A link from NPR about this stuff:

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/11/145044060/political-battle-brewing-over-new-voter-id-laws

[derspiess]

Ok, so in Indiana people have to pay for the right to vote.  Lets all follow them off the cliff.

lolwut

Info on how to get your free photo ID card: http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2625.htm

OMG that's too many hoops to jump through! 

[MadBurgerMaker]

OMG that's too many hoops to jump through! 

Probably the most pain in the ass part would be getting a copy of your birth certificate if you don't have one.   Their DL places are even open on Saturdays for those who are constantly working all week, and look to generally be open an extra hour or two one other day of the week.

Hell, they even give you a temporary card right then and there that'll work for voting purposes.

[Caliga]

Cc, I think we might be talking past each other.  It's possible that many if not most Americans and Canadians both can walk to their local polling place.  All I'm saying is large geographic swaths of both countries wouldn't fall into this category, where a minority of people live.  I don't know about Canada but here you cannot live in a rural area and be without a car so the argument is really a non-starter.

[crazy canuck]

Ok, so in Indiana people have to pay for the right to vote.  Lets all follow them off the cliff.

lolwut

Info on how to get your free photo ID card: http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2625.htm

A link from NPR about this stuff:

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/11/145044060/political-battle-brewing-over-new-voter-id-laws

Applicants must bring documents to the license branch to prove their name and date of birth, Social Security number, lawful status in the United States, and Indiana residency.

So, a person without a picture ID must get to a DMV location during office hours and must submit the above documentation.  What if such a person does not have a birth certificate and has to order a new one in order to qualify to vote.  Is that free?  When I had to get a replacement certificate a number of years ago (my original was destroyed in a house fire) I recall a cost.  I assume it is the same in the US.  Most people likely have a social security number but if one does not is obtaining that free?  I dont know it has been too long since I obtained my equivalent to remember if it had cost associated with it.  I am not sure how one proves lawful status in the US.  Here we prove our status via birth certificates which brings us back to the cost issue identified above.  I assume proof of Indiana residency is pretty straight forward as I assume that a person would just need to show that bills etc are sent to them at a particular address.  But maybe I am wrong maybe something more convincing is required that would cost money to obtain.

So lolwut right back at you.
So, what happens if a person doe

[Maximus]

You have to have some mighty big blinders on to fail to recognize that this is not a nuetral measure.

What measure?

The question was whether voters should be required to show photo ID. The  answer is yes with the additional requirements I outlined. This does not imply a connection to any law proposed or enacted. Nor does it imply that it is politically feasible, few worthwhile things are.

That in turn does not meant it is not a good idea or that it would be difficult or costly(other than politically).

[crazy canuck]

Cc, I think we might be talking past each other.  It's possible that many if not most Americans and Canadians both can walk to their local polling place.  All I'm saying is large geographic swaths of both countries wouldn't fall into this category, where a minority of people live.  I don't know about Canada but here you cannot live in a rural area and be without a car so the argument is really a non-starter.

Well lets take the people that can then.  The people in urban areas.  Do all those people have access to DMVs that are within walking distance.  If not then do you see the problem.

One of the things that got me thinking about this is a story I heard about Seattle yesterday.  Apparently there is a place surrounded by poor neighbourhoods that is referred to as a food desert because there are no grocery stores within a reasonable distance where residents can by food and so they purchase their food from corner stores and gas stations (no offence intended).

I found that remarkable and didnt believe it at first but apparently that is a phenomenon in a number of cities in the industrialized world (the term seems to have been coined in the UK).  Not having available access to healthy food apparently has all kinds of negative outcomes.  I mean sure eating at a gas station every now and then is fine but a steady diet of quicky mart hotdogs has got to have some adverse effect.

If not having having ready access to a grocery store influences eating behaviour negatively I think it likely that not having ready access to a DMV is likely to influence the likelyhood of actually getting to the DMV with all the documents required to obtain the ID.

Our resident Republican apologists can laugh all they want at the hoops one must jump through which seem trivial to people with the resources and ability to easily jump through them.  But we should not assess the impact of voting laws based on how it will impact those it will not likely impact but rather those it is most likely to impact.

[crazy canuck]

You have to have some mighty big blinders on to fail to recognize that this is not a nuetral measure.

What measure?

The question was whether voters should be required to show photo ID.

You just answered your own question.

[MadBurgerMaker]

So, a person without a picture ID must get to a DMV location during office hours and must submit the above documentation.  What if such a person does not have a birth certificate and has to order a new one in order to qualify to vote.  Is that free?  When I had to get a replacement certificate a number of years ago (my original was destroyed in a house fire) I recall a cost.  I assume it is the same in the US.  Most people likely have a social security number but if one does not is obtaining that free?  I dont know it has been too long since I obtained my equivalent to remember if it had cost associated with it.  I am not sure how one proves lawful status in the US.  Here we prove our status via birth certificates which brings us back to the cost issue identified above.  I assume proof of Indiana residency is pretty straight forward as I assume that a person would just need to show that bills etc are sent to them at a particular address.  But maybe I am wrong maybe something more convincing is required that would cost money to obtain.

So lolwut right back at you.
So, what happens if a person doe

Since you are apparently incapable of clicking links and reading things:

The full list of documents proving your identity includes:
United States birth certificate. Must be an original or certified copy filed with a U.S. state or territory office of vital statistics or equivalent agency in your state of birth. Puerto Rican-born citizens must provide a birth certificate issued on or after July 1, 2010.
Amended birth certificate showing a change of legal name, date of birth, or gender. The amended birth certificate must have been filed with a state office of vital statistics in your state of birth.
United States passport.
Foreign passport with a United States visa affixed and accompanied by an approved I-94 form documenting your most recent admittance into, or current status in, the United States.
Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by Department of State (Form FS-240, Form DS-1350, or Form FS-545).
Certificate of Naturalization (Form N-550 or Form N-570).
Certificate of Citizenship (Form N-560 or Form N-561).
Permanent Resident Card issued by Department of Homeland Security or Citizenship and Immigration Services (Form I-551).
Employment Authorization Document issued by Department of Homeland Security (Form I-766).
Other documents issued by a United States federal agency to show identity and lawful status. The BMV must be able to verify through the Department of Homeland Security that the information in the document is accurate.

That shit also proves your lawful status in the US.  The birth certificate copy, if you don't have one, is $4 in Indiana, and is an excellent document to have.  The social security card is free.  Proof of residency is a fucking bill.  So $4 once.  This is not prohibitive and is not difficult.  The hours of the BMV are on their website (and have been previously posted) and are perfectly reasonable.  They include locations open on Saturday and with a night during the week where they stay open late.

I have a question for you:  How the fuck are these people who are supposed to be voting getting these crazy jobs where they work from 8-7 every day except Sunday without any documentation at all?   That job they have must suck real bad too, since it apparently also doesn't cover the cost of a regular ID, let alone a copy of a damn birth certificate.

I seriously give no shits either way about the law, since I have an ID and can provide it if they want, or not.  Makes no difference to me.  The exaggeration about how difficult it is for someone to get an ID card of any type is irritating though.  It's not fucking difficult.

[crazy canuck]

MiM, if you are not actually going to read my post there is no point in talking is there.

[MadBurgerMaker]

MiM, if you are not actually going to read my post there is no point in talking is there.

It would probably help if you even knew who you were talking to.

E: But you know what?  Here:

So, a person without a picture ID must get to a DMV location during office hours and must submit the above documentation.  What if such a person does not have a birth certificate and has to order a new one in order to qualify to vote.  Is that free?  When I had to get a replacement certificate a number of years ago (my original was destroyed in a house fire) I recall a cost. 

The birth certificate copy, if you don't have one, is $4 in Indiana, and is an excellent document to have.

Most people likely have a social security number but if one does not is obtaining that free?  I dont know it has been too long since I obtained my equivalent to remember if it had cost associated with it.

The social security card is free.

I am not sure how one proves lawful status in the US.  Here we prove our status via birth certificates which brings us back to the cost issue identified above.

The full list of documents proving your identity includes:
United States birth certificate. Must be an original or certified copy filed with a U.S. state or territory office of vital statistics or equivalent agency in your state of birth. Puerto Rican-born citizens must provide a birth certificate issued on or after July 1, 2010.
Amended birth certificate showing a change of legal name, date of birth, or gender. The amended birth certificate must have been filed with a state office of vital statistics in your state of birth.
United States passport.
Foreign passport with a United States visa affixed and accompanied by an approved I-94 form documenting your most recent admittance into, or current status in, the United States.
Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by Department of State (Form FS-240, Form DS-1350, or Form FS-545).
Certificate of Naturalization (Form N-550 or Form N-570).
Certificate of Citizenship (Form N-560 or Form N-561).
Permanent Resident Card issued by Department of Homeland Security or Citizenship and Immigration Services (Form I-551).
Employment Authorization Document issued by Department of Homeland Security (Form I-766).
Other documents issued by a United States federal agency to show identity and lawful status. The BMV must be able to verify through the Department of Homeland Security that the information in the document is accurate.

That shit also proves your lawful status in the US.

I assume proof of Indiana residency is pretty straight forward as I assume that a person would just need to show that bills etc are sent to them at a particular address.  But maybe I am wrong maybe something more convincing is required that would cost money to obtain.

Proof of residency is a fucking bill.

Which part do you feel I didn't read and respond to?

[derspiess]

[Maximus]

Cc, I think we might be talking past each other.  It's possible that many if not most Americans and Canadians both can walk to their local polling place.  All I'm saying is large geographic swaths of both countries wouldn't fall into this category, where a minority of people live.  I don't know about Canada but here you cannot live in a rural area and be without a car so the argument is really a non-starter.

Well lets take the people that can then.  The people in urban areas.  Do all those people have access to DMVs that are within walking distance.  If not then do you see the problem.

One of the things that got me thinking about this is a story I heard about Seattle yesterday.  Apparently there is a place surrounded by poor neighbourhoods that is referred to as a food desert because there are no grocery stores within a reasonable distance where residents can by food and so they purchase their food from corner stores and gas stations (no offence intended).

I found that remarkable and didnt believe it at first but apparently that is a phenomenon in a number of cities in the industrialized world (the term seems to have been coined in the UK).  Not having available access to healthy food apparently has all kinds of negative outcomes.  I mean sure eating at a gas station every now and then is fine but a steady diet of quicky mart hotdogs has got to have some adverse effect.

If not having having ready access to a grocery store influences eating behaviour negatively I think it likely that not having ready access to a DMV is likely to influence the likelyhood of actually getting to the DMV with all the documents required to obtain the ID.

Our resident Republican apologists can laugh all they want at the hoops one must jump through which seem trivial to people with the resources and ability to easily jump through them.  But we should not assess the impact of voting laws based on how it will impact those it will not likely impact but rather those it is most likely to impact.

I didn't realize one had to renew the IDs every other day. That does indeed make things difficult and I may have to come around to your point of view.

Marty-like comparisons aside. Getting an ID isn't outside the ability of anyone who cares. And yea, I've been there, so you can put your assumptions in a warm, wet place.