Trayvon Martin case: use of Stand Your Ground law or pursuit of a black teen?

[Rasputin]

It simply seems more reasonable on its face that this guy caused the confrontation and was not acting in legitimate self-defence when a large and armed man with an attraction to acting as a local vigilante chases down (contrary to 911 instructions), and then guns down, a kid out to buy Skittles*.

The two conclusions are not mutually exclusive.  It could be that Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur by following Martin but yet still acted in self-defense when Martin reacted by using deadly force (not saying this did happen just that it could have).  And the question is not which scenario is more likely but whether there is some reasonable basis to believe the Zimmerman story.

Perhaps Florida law is actually that screwed up, that you can chase an unarmed kid down with a gun, blow them away, and claim the kid punched you in the nose and this justifies you - and the cops won't even charge you because, the kid being dead and your nose being bloody, there is no possibility whatsoever of a conviction.

But if so, what is causing the outrage is the absurdity of Florida law. Perhaps people commenting on the story simply do not realize how consequence-free shooting someone in the street is in Florida.

you are mixing metaphors

there is nothing absurd about the law

in any criminal case the state must prove the crime beyond any reasonable doubt

if the prosecuting agencies believe that some piece of evidence will make it difficult to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, they have the discretion to not prosecute the case

here there is evidence from which the investigating agency could conclude that a conviction will be very unlikely

ie, a jury could find zimmerman's injuries consistent with self defense and it is unlikely that the jury will hear some of the more attenuated circumstantial evidence (like he called the police dozens of times about suspiscious behavior)

those injuries create reasonable doubt even if it's possible that he was not acting in self defense

the only thing florida law did here was to do away with the common law duty of retreat

back in those days people who were defending themselves from armed robbery were finding themselves in jail for not retreating instead

[Barrister]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

[HVC]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

i can see a reason to allow self defense, but if the florida law works the way it is discribed they really should rethink it.

[Ed Anger]

I wish Ohio had a stand your ground law. I could have shot those teenagers down in the parking lot of a dollar store. 

[grumbler]

Oh I see. It's almost as if the police should have gathered more evidence on the scene and, you know, investigated the incident. I mean, they're obviously not going to find evidence needed for the high standard of conviction if they don't look for it.

This.  The police seemingly started with the assumption that this was not a homicide (didn't test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol, didn't take him into custody, didn't collect ballistics on the weapon) and ignored witnesses who said that it was Taylor who was calling for help.

The police didn't need sufficient evidence to convict before they took Zimmerman into custody and began an investigation.  They just needed probable cause to believe that Zimmerman's story might not be correct, and evidence collected from witnesses provided that, I would think.

Whether Zimmerman should have been charged is a different question, and one that should have depended on the homicide investigation that was not conducted.

[derspiess]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

"Conservatives"

[CountDeMoney]

I wish Ohio had a stand your ground law. I could have shot those teenagers down in the parking lot of a dollar store. 

Don't worry;  you'll get your chance when the girls start dating.

[derspiess]

I wish Ohio had a stand your ground law. I could have shot those teenagers down in the parking lot of a dollar store. 

Don't worry;  you'll get your chance when the girls start dating.

I look forward to seeing how he'll improve over the stereotypical 'cleaning the shotgun' thing when the boys come over to the house.  And I'll be taking notes.

[Ed Anger]

I wish Ohio had a stand your ground law. I could have shot those teenagers down in the parking lot of a dollar store. 

Don't worry;  you'll get your chance when the girls start dating.

I look forward to seeing how he'll improve over the stereotypical 'cleaning the shotgun' thing when the boys come over to the house.  And I'll be taking notes.

I've already done that with the goddaughter's 'boyfriends'. Shoulder holster with a .38 in it makes an impression.

[Barrister]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

"Conservatives"

That's what it says on my membership card.

"Republicans"

[CountDeMoney]

"Yes, Mr. A;  you wanted to speak with me, sir?"
"I just want you to know that I have, in fact, killed two men in my life.  Two.  And questions were never asked."

[Ed Anger]

"Yes, Mr. A;  you wanted to speak with me, sir?"
"I just want you to know that I have, in fact, killed two men in my life.  Two.  And questions were never asked."

Actually the first thing I'd ask them was if they wanted a drink while motioning to the wet bar. SAY YES AND YOU FAIL KID.

[derspiess]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

"Conservatives"

That's what it says on my membership card.

"Republicans"

What-- we're closet monarchists or something? 

[Jacob]

Actually the first thing I'd ask them was if they wanted a drink while motioning to the wet bar. SAY YES AND YOU FAIL KID.

My version of that I'm planning is to be pouring myself a glass of single malt.

I'll have another glass out, and offer him a pour.

Then I'll give him the intensely disapproving look, to let him know he fucked up.

... whether he says yes ("what are you, a fucking drunk?") or no ("what? You turn down my hospitality?")

[CountDeMoney]

"Yes, Mr. A;  you wanted to speak with me, sir?"
"I just want you to know that I have, in fact, killed two men in my life.  Two.  And questions were never asked."

Actually the first thing I'd ask them was if they wanted a drink while motioning to the wet bar. SAY YES AND YOU FAIL KID.

Want to send him home fast?

"Hey kid, just an FYI:  she's a fantastic kisser."  *wink, nudge*