Waffen-SS - elite units or overrated?

[Viking]

AFAIK, Lehr was virtually wiped out in the falaise pocket and was a shadow of itself after that.

Right, but so were all the other panzer divisions that participated in the Bulge.

From Wikipedia

Operation Wacht am Rhein

In Early November Panzer Lehr was transferred to Hasso von Manteuffel's Fifth Panzer Army, part of Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt's Army Group G in preparation for the planned winter offensive, Operation Wacht am Rhein, commonly known as the Battle of the Bulge. On November 21 the fully rested and refitted Panzer Lehr was ordered out of its assembly area to counterattack the American forces driving towards the Saverne Gap. The counterattack stalled out, and Panzer Lehr was called back out of the line, much reduced in strength.

The time spent refitting Panzer Lehr and several other units which had been committed prematurely meant that the operation had to be delayed. During the run up to the offensive Panzer Lehr was kept in reserve, along with the Führer Begleit Brigade. On December 15, the day before the offensive began, Panzer Lehr was still severely understrength, with only one of its two tank battalions ready for action. In compensation it was reinforced by two tank destroyer battalions and an assault gun brigade. The division's armored reconnaissance battalion was its only organic unit up to full strength.

Wacht am Rhein opened on December 16, 1944, and Panzer Lehr moved out from the start positions in the center of the German line. The 26th Volksgrenadier Division was to clear the way for the division, but they soon became bogged down and the Panzer Lehr found itself moving forward at a crawl. The situation worsened over the next two days, with the 901st Panzergrenadier Regiment being halted by the Americans along the road to Wiltz, and the 902nd encountering heavy resistance in the town of Hosingen.

[11B4V]

Got a semi-related question for Before.

One thing that always bugged me when I played SPI's Wacht am Rhein was the OOB of Panzer Lehr.  3 panzergrenedier regiments and one lousy StugIII battallion.  WTF?  No Panthers?  No PzIVs? 

Is that accurate for Lehr during the Bulge?

3 PG regiments dont sound right. Thought there was errata on those. They represent Kampf Groups though.*Shrugs*
But I dont that OOB was accuarate While it was not up to it's pre-normandy strength during the BotB. It did have one panzer battalion and some assault guns. Western theater is not my thing, so maybe someone can post a halfway accurate OOB for that time.

[11B4V]

AFAIK, Lehr was virtually wiped out in the falaise pocket and was a shadow of itself after that.

Right, but so were all the other panzer divisions that participated in the Bulge.

From Wikipedia

Operation Wacht am Rhein

In Early November Panzer Lehr was transferred to Hasso von Manteuffel's Fifth Panzer Army, part of Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt's Army Group G in preparation for the planned winter offensive, Operation Wacht am Rhein, commonly known as the Battle of the Bulge. On November 21 the fully rested and refitted Panzer Lehr was ordered out of its assembly area to counterattack the American forces driving towards the Saverne Gap. The counterattack stalled out, and Panzer Lehr was called back out of the line, much reduced in strength.

The time spent refitting Panzer Lehr and several other units which had been committed prematurely meant that the operation had to be delayed. During the run up to the offensive Panzer Lehr was kept in reserve, along with the Führer Begleit Brigade. On December 15, the day before the offensive began, Panzer Lehr was still severely understrength, with only one of its two tank battalions ready for action. In compensation it was reinforced by two tank destroyer battalions and an assault gun brigade. The division's armored reconnaissance battalion was its only organic unit up to full strength.

Wacht am Rhein opened on December 16, 1944, and Panzer Lehr moved out from the start positions in the center of the German line. The 26th Volksgrenadier Division was to clear the way for the division, but they soon became bogged down and the Panzer Lehr found itself moving forward at a crawl. The situation worsened over the next two days, with the 901st Panzergrenadier Regiment being halted by the Americans along the road to Wiltz, and the 902nd encountering heavy resistance in the town of Hosingen.

Useless.
We want numbers man, numbers.

[Berkut]

Lehr's normal OOB was

1xPanzer Regiment
2xPanzerGrenadier Regiments
Artillery, recon, etc., etc. etc.

I know that for WaR they only had 1 of their two Panzer battalions, so the Regiment would be half strength. I have no idea why they would show as having three PG regiments though - that is just kind of odd.

[Admiral Yi]

OK, so bottom line SPI missed the one panzer battallion.  Assault guns were covered by corps level assets.

[11B4V]

OK, so bottom line SPI missed the one panzer battallion.  Assault guns were covered by corps level assets.

It depends on how the designer interpeted the OOB for that operation.  The original WaR Lehr OOB looks rather bizzare. Even in the WaR II it shows Lehr with no pure Panzer Bns. But shows what appears as Kampf Groups.

[Admiral Yi]

It depends on how the designer interpeted the OOB for that operation. Even in the WaR II it shows Lehr with no pure Panzer Bns. But shows what appears as Kampf Groups.

SPI showed all battallions as pure battallions.  Here's a volksgrenedier battalion, here's a StuH battallion.

[Berkut]

I could see having them show as 2 KGs, assuming the Panzer battalion was just divided into each PG regment. I don't see how they could come up with three though.

[The Brain]

were the belgians called waffle-ss

[11B4V]

I could see having them show as 2 KGs, assuming the Panzer battalion was just divided into each PG regment. I don't see how they could come up with three though.

True. Here's the WaR II Lehr OOB

[11B4V]

were the belgians called waffle-ss

Close...Wallonien

[11B4V]

It depends on how the designer interpeted the OOB for that operation. Even in the WaR II it shows Lehr with no pure Panzer Bns. But shows what appears as Kampf Groups.

SPI showed all battallions as pure battallions.  Here's a volksgrenedier battalion, here's a StuH battallion.

J.D. was bizzare sometimes. I wouldnt exactly hold that as a rule.

[Admiral Yi]

J.D. was bizzare sometimes. I wouldnt exactly hold that as a rule.

Pretty sure JD didn't get a credit on that game.  I'm thinking The Fat Man.

[11B4V]

J.D. was bizzare sometimes. I wouldnt exactly hold that as a rule.

Pretty sure JD didn't get a credit on that game.  I'm thinking The Fat Man.

Could be. JD is also listed as a designer.

[Admiral Yi]

Could be. JD is also listed as a designer.

Quit stalking me.