Any way for the Germans to win the Eastern front?

[Tamas]

Surely a war between just Germany and Britain is far closer to "winning" than a war against both Britain and Russia.  And if you take it further, that Britain peace's out too, what inhibitions could Japan then possibly have?

Well the Brits would be able to concentrate their whole strength against the Japanese, and why would Germany desire to restart a conflict with Britain now that they're preparing for a massive campaign against the USSR?

So Barbarossa get's pushed back to '42 or 43'?

- Germany invades a much better prepared USSR, lets say in May '42.
- Germany will still probably do well enough initially that Japan goes all-out in December '42.
- Britain comes back into the war now that the USSR and the USA are in it.
- WW2 turns out the same way it did originally, just maybe ending a year or two later.

Pretty much. And this is why strategic WW2 what-ifs are so boring. You had Nazi Germany, and Asstard Japan with their own questionable motivations on the world stage, but motivations which were the very foundation and reason for existence of the governing forces in the countries. And you had ALL the other major powers who wanted one or both to go. They wanted this for different reasons perhaps, sure, but they wanted it.

The ideology and internal political needs put the Axis countries on an unavoidable collision course with countries whose combined strength far outweighted their own. The only what-if regarding WW2, is how much more or less time and casualities it had taken to get to the same result. The result was inevitable.

If you want to contemplate what-ifs which had a reasonable chance at changing the world compared to what we have today, look at WW1.

[11B4V]

Trench warfare is sooooo boring.

[Habbaku]

Trench warfare is sooooo boring.

WW I != Belgium.

[Razgovory]

Trench warfare is sooooo boring.

The participants found it exciting enough.

[11B4V]

Trench warfare is sooooo boring.

The participants found it exciting enough.

Ya think

[jimmy olsen]

Trench warfare is sooooo boring.

The participants found it exciting enough.

Not sure why, but that literally made me laugh out loud! 

[dps]

Why would they be forced to suspend operations for an attack that's 5 years away?

Weren't they going to run out of oil within months?

Yeah, pretty much.  They were really starting to feel the pinch of the US oil embargo (and the price the US wanted to lift the embargo was essentially a return to the pre-1937 status quo in China).  They weren't directly interested in any US territory as a source of oil--they wanted the Dutch East Indies for that--but they felt that they had to kick the US out of the Philippines and the British out of Malaysia in order to secure their supply lines to Indonesia.  Considerations of what was going on in Europe didn't really play any part of their calculations.

[CountDeMoney]

Anyway, the cooler question to answer, besides if there were any real way for the Germans to win (which there wasn't), would be: what if Stalin's plan for his own eventual attack got the drop on Hitler and the Soviets pushed east first in late summer of 1941?

Interesting. Are the Germans in the midsts of their Barbarossa build-up when Stalin gets froggy?

We know Stalin was adamant on Timo and Zhuk drawing up pre-emptive invasion plans against Hitler, advancing from a possible 42 kickoff to as early as late summer 41;  so, say that Germans maintained their eastern presence without the Barbarossa build-up, but weren't necessarily preparing for Sea Lion, either.

Is the 1941 Red Army, stuck between undoing its original defensive borders prior to partition of Poland, and not yet fully deployed defensively in the newly acquired territories, prepared enough for offensive operations for seizing the rest of Poland and other locales?  Do the Germans stonewall the patriotic hordes of workers and pheasants?

[CountDeMoney]

Trench warfare is sooooo boring.

The participants found it exciting enough.

Ya think

I can't wait to cry watching War Horse.

[11B4V]

Anyway, the cooler question to answer, besides if there were any real way for the Germans to win (which there wasn't), would be: what if Stalin's plan for his own eventual attack got the drop on Hitler and the Soviets pushed east first in late summer of 1941?

Interesting. Are the Germans in the midsts of their Barbarossa build-up when Stalin gets froggy?

We know Stalin was adamant on Timo and Zhuk drawing up pre-emptive invasion plans against Hitler, advancing from a possible 42 kickoff to as early as late summer 41;  so, say that Germans maintained their eastern presence without the Barbarossa build-up, but weren't necessarily preparing for Sea Lion, either.

Is the 1941 Red Army, stuck between undoing its original defensive borders prior to partition of Poland, and not yet fully deployed defensively in the newly acquired territories, prepared enough for offensive operations for seizing the rest of Poland and other locales?  Do the Germans stonewall the patriotic hordes of workers and pheasants?

It's hard to get past the Russian tactical and operation ineptness this early in the game. They may have got some gains, but would have got their asses kicked by a veteran Wehrmacht.

[Alcibiades]

Found this  today, reminded me of this thread so thought I'd pop it in here.

http://www.rodvik.com/rodgames/STAVKA-OKH.html


Do it better on the Eastern Front as the OKH or Stavka, or something.

[Razgovory]

Found this  today, reminded me of this thread so thought I'd pop it in here.

http://www.rodvik.com/rodgames/STAVKA-OKH.html


Do it better on the Eastern Front as the OKH or Stavka, or something.

Neat.  I won the war and succeeded Hitler as leader.  Europe is mine!  Made the final push in the autumn of 1945.  Only cost 26,219,516 lives.

[Ed Anger]

That game helps with my murder boner.

[CountDeMoney]

That game helps with my murder boner.

Fucking Wimbledon match helps your murder boner.

[Razgovory]

That game helps with my murder boner.

For a murder boners lasting more then six hours see your physician immediately.