Penn State Goings-On

[frunk]

To think that they can't is silly.  Collegiate Athletics is the NCAA's business and the problems in the Penn State Athletic Department were unprecedented.  They also made it clear that this isn't about the Sandusky crimes, it is about the 14 years of the Athletic Department hiding, lying for, and making excuses for a child rapist.  If this wasn't lack of institutional control I would be curious to see what you thought was.

It's not that I don't think they can, I'm just wondering why they should.  The criminal activities that occurred had no direct affect on the sports or education program of the school.  It was strictly driven by the vile actions of one person and the stupid/blinkered desire of others to prevent it from becoming public.  The punishments being meted out won't stop other idiots in a similar position from doing something equally dumb.  I'm sure that there are other coverups going on at most of the NCAA schools right now, although I really hope that none of them are this bad.

My personal opinion is that the halfway house between high school and the pros of collegiate football/basketball isn't working and is getting worse all the time.  Better to cut them loose and turn them into actual minor leagues instead of distorting the focus of higher education.

[Valmy]

Few do, but then few ADs make money.  Michigan's AD sends about $20 million to the university every year.  Three quarters of that is for sports scholarships, the rest goes into the general scholarship fund.

Which is nice but zero for operating expenses or anything that would make the university dependent on the AD.

[Berkut]

The punishments being meted out won't stop other idiots in a similar position from doing something equally dumb.

I do not agree with this at all.

The very point of making these punishments extremely harsh is to convince administrators that the cost of the cover-up is worse than the cost of coming clean.

That is the entire purpose behind all NCAA sanctions.

This is truly a classic case of the need to make an example. Not so much an example of what happens when you let assistant coaches fuck minors in your locker (I certianly hope that is a isolate incident) but what happens when you let the football culture dominate the university culture so much that basic integrity is somehow lost.

Hopefully this is very much an eye opening experience for not just PSU (and honestly, PSU had their eyes opened before anyone slapped them with these penalties) but for other university presidents and athletic directors. The penalty for losing focus to this extent should be extreme, otherwise you are right - it won't stop.

[Malthus]

The punishments being meted out won't stop other idiots in a similar position from doing something equally dumb.

I do not agree with this at all.

The very point of making these punishments extremely harsh is to convince administrators that the cost of the cover-up is worse than the cost of coming clean.

That is the entire purpose behind all NCAA sanctions.

This is truly a classic case of the need to make an example. Not so much an example of what happens when you let assistant coaches fuck minors in your locker (I certianly hope that is a isolate incident) but what happens when you let the football culture dominate the university culture so much that basic integrity is somehow lost.

Hopefully this is very much an eye opening experience for not just PSU (and honestly, PSU had their eyes opened before anyone slapped them with these penalties) but for other university presidents and athletic directors. The penalty for losing focus to this extent should be extreme, otherwise you are right - it won't stop.

I dunno. If the penalty for covering up crimes is to be fired and suffer criminal punishments - what additional actual deterrence is provided by imposing sanctions on the institution as a whole, after you, the person(s) responsible for the cover-up, are (presumably) long gone, serving your time? I mean, unless you are very loyal to your organization, presumably you don't really care what happens to it that much, compared with what will happen to you.   

[Valmy]

The criminal activities that occurred had no direct affect on the sports or education program of the school.  It was strictly driven by the vile actions of one person and the stupid/blinkered desire of others to prevent it from becoming public.

It was a coach, not just any individual.  And a coach who coached games after they knew about it.  That seems to have alot to do with sports, if they had reported it promptly that super star defensive coordinator would not have been coaching those games.  UT recently (well a couple years ago) got a major violation for the actions of a coach that had nothing to do with any players.

[garbon]

The punishments being meted out won't stop other idiots in a similar position from doing something equally dumb.

I do not agree with this at all.

The very point of making these punishments extremely harsh is to convince administrators that the cost of the cover-up is worse than the cost of coming clean.

That is the entire purpose behind all NCAA sanctions.

This is truly a classic case of the need to make an example. Not so much an example of what happens when you let assistant coaches fuck minors in your locker (I certianly hope that is a isolate incident) but what happens when you let the football culture dominate the university culture so much that basic integrity is somehow lost.

Hopefully this is very much an eye opening experience for not just PSU (and honestly, PSU had their eyes opened before anyone slapped them with these penalties) but for other university presidents and athletic directors. The penalty for losing focus to this extent should be extreme, otherwise you are right - it won't stop.

I dunno. If the penalty for covering up crimes is to be fired and suffer criminal punishments - what additional actual deterrence is provided by imposing sanctions on the institution as a whole, after you, the person(s) responsible for the cover-up, are (presumably) long gone, serving your time? I mean, unless you are very loyal to your organization, presumably you don't really care what happens to it that much, compared with what will happen to you.   

Encourages the University to be better at self-policing.

[Valmy]

I dunno. If the penalty for covering up crimes is to be fired and suffer criminal punishments - what additional actual deterrence is provided by imposing sanctions on the institution as a whole, after you, the person(s) responsible for the cover-up, are (presumably) long gone, serving your time? I mean, unless you are very loyal to your organization, presumably you don't really care what happens to it that much, compared with what will happen to you.

Well that is sort of the problem with NCAA rules and enforcement in general.  The people responsible for the violations tend to move on (to things other than working for NCAA institutions anyway...at least for awhile) and the people left behind have to deal with the fallout. 

On the other hand, since the NCAA is completely dependent on the member institutions to police themselves it is the institutions who have to suffer the pain.

[Malthus]

The punishments being meted out won't stop other idiots in a similar position from doing something equally dumb.

I do not agree with this at all.

The very point of making these punishments extremely harsh is to convince administrators that the cost of the cover-up is worse than the cost of coming clean.

That is the entire purpose behind all NCAA sanctions.

This is truly a classic case of the need to make an example. Not so much an example of what happens when you let assistant coaches fuck minors in your locker (I certianly hope that is a isolate incident) but what happens when you let the football culture dominate the university culture so much that basic integrity is somehow lost.

Hopefully this is very much an eye opening experience for not just PSU (and honestly, PSU had their eyes opened before anyone slapped them with these penalties) but for other university presidents and athletic directors. The penalty for losing focus to this extent should be extreme, otherwise you are right - it won't stop.

I dunno. If the penalty for covering up crimes is to be fired and suffer criminal punishments - what additional actual deterrence is provided by imposing sanctions on the institution as a whole, after you, the person(s) responsible for the cover-up, are (presumably) long gone, serving your time? I mean, unless you are very loyal to your organization, presumably you don't really care what happens to it that much, compared with what will happen to you.   

Encourages the University to be better at self-policing.

Dunno what the university as an organization can effectively do, if the people who make up its administration are covering up crimes. The most the university itself can do to someone is threaten to fire them if they cover up stuff.

[Malthus]

I dunno. If the penalty for covering up crimes is to be fired and suffer criminal punishments - what additional actual deterrence is provided by imposing sanctions on the institution as a whole, after you, the person(s) responsible for the cover-up, are (presumably) long gone, serving your time? I mean, unless you are very loyal to your organization, presumably you don't really care what happens to it that much, compared with what will happen to you.

Well that is sort of the problem with NCAA rules and enforcement in general.  The people responsible for the violations tend to move on (to things other than working for NCAA institutions anyway...at least for awhile) and the people left behind have to deal with the fallout. 

On the other hand, since the NCAA is completely dependent on the member institutions to police themselves it is the institutions who have to suffer the pain.

Seems more of an issue where the NCAA rules are being used to punish institutions for the outright criminal activities of their administrators or staff, than where the rules are used to punish organizations for breaking the NCAA rules themselves. In the former case, there is (presumably) a criminal justice system in place to deal with the concerns, but not in the latter case.

[garbon]

Dunno what the university as an organization can effectively do, if the people who make up its administration are covering up crimes. The most the university itself can do to someone is threaten to fire them if they cover up stuff.

Well one thing they can do is get at the heart of why staff think it is appropriate/acceptable to cover up crimes.

[Valmy]

Dunno what the university as an organization can effectively do, if the people who make up its administration are covering up crimes. The most the university itself can do to someone is threaten to fire them if they cover up stuff.

Ok so everytime a University breaks NCAA rules they can just finger a few scape goats and never suffer any violations then?

[Barrister]

The punishments being meted out won't stop other idiots in a similar position from doing something equally dumb.

I do not agree with this at all.

The very point of making these punishments extremely harsh is to convince administrators that the cost of the cover-up is worse than the cost of coming clean.

That is the entire purpose behind all NCAA sanctions.

This is truly a classic case of the need to make an example. Not so much an example of what happens when you let assistant coaches fuck minors in your locker (I certianly hope that is a isolate incident) but what happens when you let the football culture dominate the university culture so much that basic integrity is somehow lost.

Hopefully this is very much an eye opening experience for not just PSU (and honestly, PSU had their eyes opened before anyone slapped them with these penalties) but for other university presidents and athletic directors. The penalty for losing focus to this extent should be extreme, otherwise you are right - it won't stop.

I dunno. If the penalty for covering up crimes is to be fired and suffer criminal punishments - what additional actual deterrence is provided by imposing sanctions on the institution as a whole, after you, the person(s) responsible for the cover-up, are (presumably) long gone, serving your time? I mean, unless you are very loyal to your organization, presumably you don't really care what happens to it that much, compared with what will happen to you.

Jail is deterrence to the individuals.  But what is deterring the institution as a whole?  To flip around your analysis, if you're a university president, board of directors and whatever - you don't particularily care if a few employees are thrown in jail.

[grumbler]

Which is nice but zero for operating expenses or anything that would make the university dependent on the AD.

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here, but I parse it as the claim that the university doesn't benefit financially from having an athletic department.  I'm not sure that you can make that case.  Studies have shown that athletic success increases donations to the university (not the AD, the university itself), and that athletic success also factors into student decisions about what college they will attend.  Do these factors make college athletics a "good deal" for the schools?  I dunno, but pretty much every university president seems to think that it does, bar a few exceptions like the Ivy Leagues and Chicago.

[Valmy]

Seems more of an issue where the NCAA rules are being used to punish institutions for the outright criminal activities of their administrators or staff, than where the rules are used to punish organizations for breaking the NCAA rules themselves. In the former case, there is (presumably) a criminal justice system in place to deal with the concerns, but not in the latter case.

Covering up criminal activity so somebody can remain to compete or coach athletics is hardly unprecedented, as I noted the Baylor case earlier.  If the athletic department does not suffer for it they will continue to cover up for their star athletes or coaches in order to win games.

[Valmy]

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here, but I parse it as the claim that the university doesn't benefit financially from having an athletic department.

No I am saying the University would survive just fine without it.  And far from few exceptions being the Ivy League and Chicago I think many great Universities exist in this country with lots of donations and are popular with students where their athletic department is not a factor.  MIT and Rice and Tulane have athletic departments but none of their donors really care about that.