Penn State Goings-On

[Valmy]

The NCAA appears to have imposed these penalties by fiat over matters properly dealt with through the criminal or civil courts.

There is a criminal matter here but there is also the fact it involved covering up a crime so a coach could coach.  Nobody has yet to explain they that is not an NCAA violation.  I guess so long as crimes are committed you can go ahead and not obey NCAA rules?

[frunk]

Ah the "everybody is doing it" defense.  And the penalties for NCAA violations are not becoming more punitive.  What are you basing this on?

I'm not defending anybody, and I consider it a terrible trend.  Perhaps not more punitive, but they've been more stringent in enforcing the rules.

Did you read the report or are you just guessing here?  And LOL that the problem was fending off the NCAA.  The NCAA would never have suspected Penn State of wrong doing in a million years.

I'm guessing, and there's a reason the NCAA would never suspect Penn State.

[alfred russel]

I guess this kind of comes down to whether we consider the University an entity that exists over and above the individials who make up its adminstrators, and hence the sum of the policies, procdeures, and culture that make up that University is identifiaible (and worthy of being punished) outsde simple the individuals who happen to be filling some job at any particular moment.

It isn't ideal of course, but what is the alternative? If you never hold the organization responsible, then there really isn't any real enforcement - any school can simply cut the individuals free now and again, and escape any real penalty.

The purpose of holding the school accountable, even if the people are gone already, is to make current schools think "Hey, I better actually buy into the idea that we should do things the right way, rather than buy into the idea that we should be good at not getting caught".

Of course, if this actually happened, the entire SEC would likely implode.

I dunno. I'm just not getting why collective, institutional punishment is appropriate.

Perhaps an example would illustrate the issue. Say a famous, skilled player - a new OJ Simpson ( ) - murdered someone, and his coach found out about it. Intead of going to the cops, he went to the President of the university. Between them, they decided to help the player cover up the murder, maybe personally buried the victim on the 50 yard line.

To my mind, arresting all three is a no-brainer. They are all guilty as fuck, and ought to sit out the season- and many more - in a cell. What I would not understand, is imposing sanctions on the school. Maybe the school board exercised bad judgment in hiring these guys, but how do you know in advance who will do that? Having a policy that says "whatever you do, do not cover up murders. Do not bury the victims in the playing field" is all well and good, but really, you sorta expect people not to do that anyway, and if they are the sort that would, are they really going to listen to your policy? "Oh yeah, I was about to commit this crime, but then I read Article 5(B) of my University Code of Conduct, and realized it was a bad idea".

I think that the universities making up the NCAA would state that the primary purpose of their institutions is to educate and instill civic minded virtues, with athletic competitions serving as secondary but supporting missions to that purpose. This seems to be a case where the president, AD, and iconic head football coach covered up child rape to prevent harm to the football program.

I know the NCAA cited other reasons, but I don't have a problem with the other collective universities taking a stand that this is unacceptable and putting strong conditions to returning to competition. If college competition is going to claim to have any standards whatsoever, there needs to be a way to sanction institutions that violate those standards.

Each school is a corporation--essentially just a filing in some government office somewhere. That filing has neither virtues nor vices. If you can't judge a school by what its senior leadership does, then it is going to be difficult to have institutional standards of conduct.

[dps]

The NCAA appears to have imposed these penalties by fiat over matters properly dealt with through the criminal or civil courts.

There is a criminal matter here but there is also the fact it involved covering up a crime so a coach could coach.  Nobody has yet to explain they that is not an NCAA violation.  I guess so long as crimes are committed you can go ahead and not obey NCAA rules?

Uh, no, Sandusky "retired" as an assistant coach in 1999.   Whatever the motivation for what when on, it clearly wasn't to allow him to coach.

[jimmy olsen]

He coached the 1999 season didn't he? So he did coach one season after they knew he might have a problem.

[crazy canuck]

The NCAA appears to have imposed these penalties by fiat over matters properly dealt with through the criminal or civil courts.

There is a criminal matter here but there is also the fact it involved covering up a crime so a coach could coach.  Nobody has yet to explain they that is not an NCAA violation.  I guess so long as crimes are committed you can go ahead and not obey NCAA rules?

And you have yet to explain to me how Sandusky's sexual assualt is a violation of NCAA rules.  As for the cover up.  That also would have criminal as well as civil consequences.  The example Malthus gave earlier is apt.

[crazy canuck]

I know the NCAA cited other reasons, but I don't have a problem with the other collective universities taking a stand that this is unacceptable and putting strong conditions to returning to competition. If college competition is going to claim to have any standards whatsoever, there needs to be a way to sanction institutions that violate those standards.

Each school is a corporation--essentially just a filing in some government office somewhere. That filing has neither virtues nor vices. If you can't judge a school by what its senior leadership does, then it is going to be difficult to have institutional standards of conduct.

The reason the NCAA had to cite other reasons is because there is nothing in the NCAA rules dealing with this because the NCAA was never set up to take over criminal or civil jurisdiction - and yet that is exactly what they have done.  If one wishes to speak of standards then the usual thing is to create those standards and then hold people to them.  What happened here is the imposition of a penalty based on a standard of "culture" newly created for this occasion.  It is arbitrary in the worst sense.

[Eddie Teach]

The reason the NCAA had to cite other reasons is because there is nothing in the NCAA rules dealing with this because the NCAA was never set up to take over criminal or civil jurisdiction - and yet that is exactly what they have done.

Nah, those are still in the hands of the court system.

[Berkut]

What, it is awesome to watch CC just go nuts over stuff he has already admitted he knows exactly fuck all about.

[crazy canuck]

The reason the NCAA had to cite other reasons is because there is nothing in the NCAA rules dealing with this because the NCAA was never set up to take over criminal or civil jurisdiction - and yet that is exactly what they have done.

Nah, those are still in the hands of the court system.

Exactly the point.  The NCAA has penalized conduct which is before the courts and over which the NCAA has no jurisdiction at all.

[crazy canuck]

What, it is awesome to watch CC just go nuts over stuff he has already admitted he knows exactly fuck all about.

What is funny is watching you go nuts over something which you think you know about but it seems actually know nothing at all.

And for someone that cries whenever he thinks his position is being mistated you really like doing it to others.  Respect for Berk -infinity.

[Berkut]

I make no claim to knowing anymore about how the NCAA works than is obvious from the report of the NCAA chair. I am not the one claiming they have failed due process, made up rules, are "taking over civil AND criminal jurisdiction" blahblahblah.

Yes, clearly that is what the NCAA has done - they have "taken over...criminal jurisdiction". Off PSU goes to NCAA jail!

[Berkut]

the NCAA was never set up to take over criminal or civil jurisdiction - and yet that is exactly what they have done. 

Just to make sure CC doesn't edit this away. Possibly one of the dumber things he has ever said, so worth of being saved for posterity before he edits it away.

[Barrister]

The reason the NCAA had to cite other reasons is because there is nothing in the NCAA rules dealing with this because the NCAA was never set up to take over criminal or civil jurisdiction - and yet that is exactly what they have done.

Nah, those are still in the hands of the court system.

Exactly the point.  The NCAA has penalized conduct which is before the courts and over which the NCAA has no jurisdiction at all.

Just because the criminal process is involved doesn't mean anyone and everyone can't also be involved.

If an employee commits a theft you don't have to wait for the criminal process to take place before firing them.

[sbr]

Let him go, he is on a roll.