Alex Salmond to let 16-year-olds vote in bid to secure independence

[Valmy]

They are about nationalism, but it's not ethnically based.  It's Rabbie Burns and Scots Law, historically it was the Kirk too.  It's about national identity more than an ethnic or linguistic identity like in Belgium or the Balkans.

What does this nationalism envision as to the level of friendship between England and Scotland?  Is there any possibility for the UK to function in a way that would please them?  Are there any practical benefits to independence?

If what you are saying is true it is pretty obvious how the Labour party lost or is losing Scotland.  Likewise what would a Tory Scot look like?  Does the SNP cover right wing Scots or is there an opening there?  Or do they tend to go Lib Dem?

[Sheilbh]

What does this nationalism envision as to the level of friendship between England and Scotland?  Is there any possibility for the UK to function in a way that would please them?  Are there any practical benefits to independence?

It's not clear what independence would look like.  Probably something a bit more intimate than what Australia and Canada have.  Alex Salmond's suggested keeping the pound, keeping the British army regiment names (or restoring them) and keeping the royal family - who already have to swear a separate oath for Scotland anyway (it boils down to doing even more to keep the Papists out).

Salmond's 'independence-lite' would, from what I can see, basically be like dominion status in the early 20th century.  They'd have fiscal autonomy and home rule in all areas but foreign and defence policy which would be decided - with Scottish votes - in Westminster.

If what you are saying is true it is pretty obvious how the Labour party lost or is losing Scotland.  Likewise what would a Tory Scot look like?  Does the SNP cover right wing Scots or is there an opening there?  Or do they tend to go Lib Dem?

I haven't a clue what a Tory Scot would look like.  They're having a leadership contest at the minute and one of the candidates wants to disband the party and start a new centre-right Scottish party that's in alliance with the Tories in Westminster (as was the case before the 1960s merger of the English Conservative and Scottish Unionist parties).

As I say the Scottish Tories are the only centre-right party in the world, that I can think of, who aren't the default patriotic party.  If anything they're perceived as anti-Scottish due to campaigning against devolution in the referendum (75% voted 'yes') and things that happened in the 18 years of Tory government.  Plus the SNP often tack right on things of national identity, law and order and the like which is where the Tories would be naturally if they were as vigorous as they are in England.

The Lib Dems are, as everywhere, just an odd bunch.

[Barrister]

Salmond's 'independence-lite' would, from what I can see, basically be like dominion status in the early 20th century.  They'd have fiscal autonomy and home rule in all areas but foreign and defence policy which would be decided - with Scottish votes - in Westminster.

That makes very little sense.  What is the purpose of independence if you can not have an independent foreign policy?  How would you send MPs to Westminster if all they could vote on was matters or foreign and defence policy (or why would the rest of the union allow Scotland to send MPs if Scotland has devolved almost all powers)?

The PQ ran the 1995 referendum saying many similar things.  It was revealed afterwards they intended to do a unilateral declaration of independence within days of a yes vote (and that France was prepared to recognize same).  I rather suspect something similar here.

[viper37]

Nationalists really are scum.

No.

[The Brain]

Ian Smith.

[Sheilbh]

That makes very little sense.  What is the purpose of independence if you can not have an independent foreign policy?  How would you send MPs to Westminster if all they could vote on was matters or foreign and defence policy (or why would the rest of the union allow Scotland to send MPs if Scotland has devolved almost all powers)?

It's not independence.  For Salmond it's to get people used to the idea of Scotland effectively running everything before the big leap into independence.  Plus I think it's Lib Dem policy so he gets to cause some trouble for the coalition.

I think the government's already trying to address the West Lothian question.

[viper37]

I do, and I have reasons, but Scotland is no nation.  The Anglo people form a nation, split between six or so jurisdictions*; I see no need to make it seven.

*And to some extent the West, split between about, what, thirty?

Are you a Scot?  And what about the Irish?  On what basis do you determine how people see themselves?  Are you a girl or a boy?  If you see a woman do you tell her she's a man because all of this gender crap is in her head?

A group of people see themselves different from others, and they have their reasons.  Just as Arizona and North Carolina see themsleves different from the New Yorkers or Californians, otherwise, there wouldn't be any States, just one big Federal government with a single set of laws for all jurisdiction.

[garbon]

I do, and I have reasons, but Scotland is no nation.  The Anglo people form a nation, split between six or so jurisdictions*; I see no need to make it seven.

*And to some extent the West, split between about, what, thirty?

Are you a Scot?  And what about the Irish?  On what basis do you determine how people see themselves?  Are you a girl or a boy?  If you see a woman do you tell her she's a man because all of this gender crap is in her head?

A group of people see themselves different from others, and they have their reasons.  Just as Arizona and North Carolina see themsleves different from the New Yorkers or Californians, otherwise, there wouldn't be any States, just one big Federal government with a single set of laws for all jurisdiction.

Oh wait...you were serious.

[Valmy]

For Salmond it's to get people used to the idea of Scotland effectively running everything before the big leap into independence.  Plus I think it's Lib Dem policy so he gets to cause some trouble for the coalition.

I think the government's already trying to address the West Lothian question.

Yet what independence would mean is not even clear you say...so why is it seen as some sort of aspiration?  Is Scotland suffering to some extent in the union and there are issues that only Independence could solve?

What is the West Lothian question?

[Barrister]

For Salmond it's to get people used to the idea of Scotland effectively running everything before the big leap into independence.  Plus I think it's Lib Dem policy so he gets to cause some trouble for the coalition.

I think the government's already trying to address the West Lothian question.

Yet what independence would mean is not even clear you say...so why is it seen as some sort of aspiration?  Is Scotland suffering to some extent in the union and there are issues that only Independence could solve?

What is the West Lothian question?

Why are you asking about practical reasons for independence?

While I'm sure the SNP can give you some, it's clearly an issue that revolves around self-identity - how individuals and a group see themselves.  It's much more an emotional question than a practical one.  And I don't mean that it a negative way.

[viper37]

Why should we give any validity to the concept of the nation state. Human governments should not be founded on the basis of ethnic groups.

Really?  Since when?  Why isn't a cultural or ethnic group a valid difference?  Why is there a border between the various Central and South American countries?  They all speak spanish, save for one whose language is Portuguese, close enough, imho.  Why not one single country there?  Since a human government shouldn't be founded on the basis of ethnic groups (and presumably, cultural groups) I don't see a problem.

It worked wonders for the USSR of old, integrating all these different communities under one single government.  That's why all of them remained part of Russia, willingly after the fall of the Soviet bloc   Wait?  It didn't happen this way?  How silly of them.

[The Brain]

The problem with regions wanting independence is that if they had been fit for it they would have already been independent. You can deny Darwin but it won't make him wrong.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The West Lothian question was first posed by Tam Dalyell, MP for that constituency at the time. Essentially, because of devolution, there are a huge range of issues in Scotland, Wales and NI that English MPs have no vote on. But, conversely, MPs from these areas can vote on such matters which affect England, as England does not have a devolved government.

[Valmy]

While I'm sure the SNP can give you some, it's clearly an issue that revolves around self-identity - how individuals and a group see themselves.  It's much more an emotional question than a practical one.  And I don't mean that it a negative way.

Why can't symbolicy yearnings like this be lived out in symbolic ways?  I mean identity is just made up anyway.  Why do they need to do drastic political moves just to satisfy vanity, but not provide any obvious benefit and perhaps even have large costs?  That strikes me as pretty irresponsible.  But these are politicians so that is not surprising.

[Valmy]

Really?  Since when?  Why isn't a cultural or ethnic group a valid difference?

For the reasons that became immediately obvious once this principle was put into effect.  You create a state that by its very raison d'être makes all minorities less than full citizens.

Why would you use Russia, the prime example of how ethnic nation states are very very bad, as a counter-example is amusing.