Alex Salmond to let 16-year-olds vote in bid to secure independence

[dps]

When the Czech-Slovak split occurred Czechoslovakia had no significant history of liberal democracy upon which to legitimize itself, outside of the period 1918-1939.  They therefore fall outside of the condemnation box, although I see of no compelling reason why dissolution struck anyone as a good idea, other than simple nationalism.

It was almost as much a matter of the Czechs kicking Slovakia out as the Slovaks leaving.  While no doubt some Slovaks wanted independence, from what I've read the Slovaks were mostly using the threat of seceding as a negotiating tactic to get more of what they wanted within a federated state, and the Czechs essentially called their bluff--"Oh, you're secede if you don't get us to agree to these policies?  OK, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out".

[grumbler]

When the Czech-Slovak split occurred Czechoslovakia had no significant history of liberal democracy upon which to legitimize itself, outside of the period 1918-1939.  They therefore fall outside of the condemnation box, although I see of no compelling reason why dissolution struck anyone as a good idea, other than simple nationalism.

A classic weasel; when your point is disproven, you start to change your point.

Irish independence was succession from a "liberal democracy" as well, though I would suppose that you would argue that the UK didn't have a "significant history of liberal democracy upon which to legitimize itself" in that case, either.

It would appear that your argument is that states which have seen parts secede = illegitimate, and states which have not = legitimate and therefor succession from the latter should be violently opposed.

Completely circular.

[Grallon]

Ide just hate the nation-state for some reason. It might not make economic sense to have independence, so why is the option polling in the 40%?

Strange - same results as our own secessionist movement.




G.

[Razgovory]

Ide, I don't think you'd feel at home in Australia or Ireland. Even London for that matter.

Or New York.  But they're still Anglophones, and I can do business with, understand the laws of, comprehend and be entertained by the culture of, and feel a kinship toward New Yorkers.

But fwiw, in the same vein there's no particularly compelling reason for (at least) an EU-style Oceania to not exist, there's not much more of particularly compelling reason why there's no overarching Western superstate, other than a lack of sanguinity in regards to fighting totalitarianism (our national reserve of which we've pretty much used up by this point anyway).

Cause we don't want to govern the British.  As I told Tim, it would take vast amounts of money to get them up to speed.  It's like West Germany and East Germany except the East Germans eat eels.

[Neil]

Cause we don't want to govern the British.  As I told Tim, it would take vast amounts of money to get them up to speed.  It's like West Germany and East Germany except the East Germans eat eels.

See, and this is the problem.  Ultimately, the rest of the Anglosphere wants no part of any kind of government that has Americans involved.  You guys are decent fellows, but your system of government is totally fucked and you're overly attached to it.

[Razgovory]

Cause we don't want to govern the British.  As I told Tim, it would take vast amounts of money to get them up to speed.  It's like West Germany and East Germany except the East Germans eat eels.

See, and this is the problem.  Ultimately, the rest of the Anglosphere wants no part of any kind of government that has Americans involved.  You guys are decent fellows, but your system of government is totally fucked and you're overly attached to it.

We already have Mississippi, we don't need Wales and Scotland.

[The Minsky Moment]

But fwiw, in the same vein there's no particularly compelling reason for (at least) an EU-style Oceania to not exist

Not if it means war with Eastasia.

[HVC]

Ide just hate the nation-state for some reason. It might not make economic sense to have independence, so why is the option polling in the 40%?

Strange - same results as our own secessionist movement.




G.

You above most have contempt for the masses. they're easily swayed by emotion and ignore facts.

[Grallon]

You above most have contempt for the masses.  They're easily swayed by emotion and ignore facts.

Debatable.  Besides this is all subjective.  What constitute a 'fact' varies from whomever invoke said 'facts'.  Even numbers can be bent to say one thing and the other.  And in a debate as emotional as collective identity...



G.

[Valmy]

Got it.  Well that is what this crap is all about isn't it?

Nationalists really are scum.

  No. On both points.

You have to admit it does look suspicious.  'Our condition for secession is we get this resource located miles off our shores currently being split among the UK all for ourselves.'  Meh.

And nationalists seek to use ethnic divisions as political fodder.  I would rather politics be based on what sort of laws need to be passed not setting people off against each other.  Ah well.

[MadImmortalMan]

So does this mean Parliament will be forever Tory?

[Valmy]

So does this mean Parliament will be forever Tory?

Well hold on now it doesn't sound like this plan is likely to succeed.

[Sheilbh]

You have to admit it does look suspicious.  'Our condition for secession is we get this resource located miles off our shores currently being split among the UK all for ourselves.'  Meh.

It's not split among the UK, we're not that sort of country.  Decentralisation's a very new thing for us.  It goes to Westminster as part of general revenue and leaves Westminster as part of general expenditure.

Edit:  And the oil fields are west of Shetland, I can't see who else's they'd be.

And nationalists seek to use ethnic divisions as political fodder.  I would rather politics be based on what sort of laws need to be passed not setting people off against each other.  Ah well.

This simply isn't the case with the SNP.  They're not terribly anti-English (far less so than the average Scot) and they're certainly not racist in any way.

In addition the problem the other parties have is precisely that last point.  The SNP have spent their time in government for the most part trying to govern.  They have their top talent in Holyrood (I think Salmond's probably the best politician in the UK, far less Scotland) and they've got an agenda  which goes far beyond simply independence. 

The other three parties on the other hand have no agenda for Scotland.  Labour treat it like a part of their patrimony and the Tories are the only centre-right party in the world who don't have a reputation for being patriotic.  They seem to spend all their time talking about the need to stop Salmond and 'save the union' while the SNP are loudly getting on with the business of government and talking about education, crime, health and, every so often, independence.

In addition the best Scottish Lib Dem and Labour politicians are all in Westminster.  There's no Donald Dewar's left.  So the SNP look like they rule the roost in Holyrood regardless.  I don't know if there's any Tory talent in Scotland.  I understand Tories and wolves have been reintroduced in Scotland recently, but I'm not sure if the breeding program's succeeded.

[Valmy]

The other three parties on the other hand have no agenda for Scotland.  Labour treat it like a part of their patrimony and the Tories are the only centre-right party in the world who don't have a reputation for being patriotic.  They seem to spend all their time talking about the need to stop Salmond and 'save the union' while the SNP are loudly getting on with the business of government and talking about education, crime, health and, every so often, independence.

Well wait a second.  I thought you guys had constituencies that had to be catered to.  Aren't there Labour Scots out there building platforms and campaigning for office in Scotland in those constituencies?  I mean there is even a Scottish Parliament.  They run for office up there by standing up and saying 'you are all going to vote for us anyway so sod off'?

Also aren't the Tories sorta part of the national government?  Are they not doing anything about crime, health, education or any of that?

In addition the best Scottish Lib Dem and Labour politicians are all in Westminster.  There's no Donald Dewar's left.  So the SNP look like they rule the roost in Holyrood regardless.  I don't know if there's any Tory talent in Scotland.  I understand Tories and wolves have been reintroduced in Scotland recently, but I'm not sure if the breeding program's succeeded.

Well I presume if one of those Pols gets elected to the Brit Parliament they do have to go there.  There are no Lib Dems or Labour pols in a local office or the Scottish Parliament?  Are they like absentee office holders in the finest tradition of the late Medieval Catholic Church?

This simply isn't the case with the SNP.  They're not terribly anti-English (far less so than the average Scot) and they're certainly not racist in any way.

So then what is their point for existance?  If they are not about nationalism what is their ideology?

[Sheilbh]

Well wait a second.  I thought you guys had constituencies that had to be catered to.  Aren't there Labour Scots out there building platforms and campaigning for office in Scotland in those constituencies?  I mean there is even a Scottish Parliament.  They run for office up there by standing up and saying 'you are all going to vote for us anyway so sod off'?

A lot of Scottish Labour candidates run that sort of campaign.  What you're saying's a bit of an exageration but not far off the truth.  The other parties don't seem to have a message or ideas beyond 'stop Salmond'.  I think parties should offer a positive reason to vote for them, rather than just a negative and the SNP are really the only party in Scotland that does that.

Also aren't the Tories sorta part of the national government?  Are they not doing anything about crime, health, education or any of that?

Scotland's always had their own legal and education system.  Since devolution they've more powers over that and now have it over health too. 

Well I presume if one of those Pols gets elected to the Brit Parliament they do have to go there.  There are no Lib Dems or Labour pols in a local office or the Scottish Parliament?  Are they like absentee office holders in the finest tradition of the late Medieval Catholic Church?

The best Scottish Lib Dem and Labour politicians want to be Prime Minister or party leader, so they run for Parliament.  The left-overs run for the Scottish Parliament.  It's mildly above the European Parliament for a politician in a national party.  The SNP on the other hand aren't so interested in Westminster, it's mainly about foreign and defence policy for them (where they kick up a fuss over the abolition of the Black Watch, for example).  Salmond stayed there for a while but saw that for his party the future was in Edinburgh.

This wasn't always the case.  The first First Minsiter, Donald Dewar, was a very impressive politician who resigned from Westminster to run as an MSP.  Trouble is none of the other good Scots Labour MPs of that time (Gordon Brown, Robin Cook for example) joined him and since then the best politicians are still in Westminster (Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander spring to mind).

So them what is their point for existance?  If they are not about nationalism what is their ideology?

They are about nationalism, but it's not ethnically based.  It's Rabbie Burns and Scots Law, historically it was the Kirk too.  It's about national identity more than an ethnic or linguistic identity like in Belgium or the Balkans.