Wikileaks - 2007: UN told to drop ‘Taiwan is part of China’ by US

[Berkut]

If China started making noise about taking over South Korea, that would be about as legit as them taking over Taiwan in any actual practical sense.

Not really.  China's claim on Taiwan is a lot more legitimate than a claim on S.Korea would be.

My claim to be an heir to the throne of Spain is more legitimate than my claim to the throne of Russia, too, I guess.

Perhaps.  And China's claim to Taiwan is fantastically more legitimate than both of those.

How so?

[Valmy]

Perhaps.  And China's claim to Taiwan is fantastically more legitimate than both of those.

I am sorry did the Manchu Dynasty return to power at some point today and I missed it?

[Eddie Teach]

Having looked into it a bit more closely(skimmed the wiki article  ), it appears China's claim on Taiwan is roughly as strong as Russia's claim on the Ukraine.

[Camerus]

@Berkut:  Heh, if you can't think of any reasons why China's claim on Taiwan isn't stronger than Ide's claim to be emperor of Russia, I doubt we will have any room for finding common ground in this discussion.

[Valmy]

@Berkut:  Heh, if you can't think of any reasons why China's claim on Taiwan isn't stronger than Ide's claim to be emperor of Russia, I doubt we will have any room for finding common ground in this discussion.

The claims are made up anyway.  The reason China has a claim on Taiwan is that they say they do and are strong enough to make everybody else agree.  That is why it is legitimate.

[Eddie Teach]

The claims are made up anyway.  The reason China has a claim on Taiwan is that they say they do and are strong enough to make everybody else agree.  That is why it is legitimate.

And that they had actual control of the area in the past, and the people of the area are quasi-Chinese.

[Camerus]

Not exactly. Some claims are more plausible than others for reasons beyond brute force.  History, tradition and culture contribute greatly to the validity of claims.

[Valmy]

And that they had actual control of the area in the past, and the people of the area are quasi-Chinese.

Please tell me when the PRC controlled Taiwan.  And there is a Chinese state in power on Taiwan.  So I do not see how those have to mean Taiwan legitimately should be part of the PRC.  I mean you have identical claims being made all over the world for equally 'legitimate' reasons.  To extent people consider them legitimate depends on who is doing the claiming.  It is China doing it so we all go along with it for the sake of international harmony and basic common sense.

[Valmy]

History, tradition and culture contribute greatly to the validity of claims.

Maybe in nationalist fantasy land.  We do not go out of our way to force Slovakia to pretend their Hungarian region is not really part of Slovakia but actually part of Hungary.

[Eddie Teach]

Please tell me when the PRC controlled Taiwan.  And there is a Chinese state in power on Taiwan.  So I do not see how those have to mean Taiwan legitimately should be part of the PRC.  I mean you have identical claims being made all over the world for equally 'legitimate' reasons.  To extent people consider them legitimate depends on who is doing the claiming.

I didn't say anything about the PRC. But Taiwan was part of "China" in the 18th and 19th centuries and still appears to consider itself to be, hence the name and the lack of a formal declaration of independence. I wouldn't support reunification against the will of either side, just as I wouldn't in the case of the Koreas or the Germanies. However, there is definitely more to the claim than just a powerful nation imposing its will on a weak neighbor.

[Camerus]

And that they had actual control of the area in the past, and the people of the area are quasi-Chinese.

Please tell me when the PRC controlled Taiwan. 

Why on earth does the victory of the CPP invalidate centuries of Chinese history and make China start at year 0 in 1949? 

[Valmy]

Why on earth does the victory of the CPP invalidate centuries of Chinese history and make China start at year 0 in 1949? 

Why on earth does ancient history validate anything?  I guess the Germans were legitimate to invade Poland since Danzig and the Polish corridor were legitimately theirs?  No.  They were strong so they took it and used history and ethnicity as their political justification.  Incidentally nobody was particularly convinced by the justice of their cause.

But also there is a Chinese government in power in Taiwan so the claim it must belong to the Chinese because of history is not even particularly compelling from some sort of self-determination nationalist standpoint.  The issue is the claim that the PRC is the only legitimate government of every part of the world that ever belonged to a previous Chinese state.   I do not see why that is super just and proper.  But they make it so with their political clout.

[Camerus]

History, tradition and culture contribute greatly to the validity of claims.

Maybe in nationalist fantasy land.  We do not go out of our way to force Slovakia to pretend their Hungarian region is not really part of Slovakia but actually part of Hungary.

So when Germany annexed Czechoslovakia, it was made OK by simple reason of force?  Clearly not - nobody regarded its claim as legitimate.  Yet its claim on Austria was regarded by many as legitimate.  Why would that be, when simple force made both a reality?

Or why, for instance, did Fredrick the Great alienate so many in his conquest of Silesia, which was almost universally regarded as illegitimate? 

Clearly there are factors beyond brute force that go into determining the legitimacy of claims.

[The Brain]

Why on earth does the victory of the CPP invalidate centuries of Chinese history and make China start at year 0 in 1949? 

Why on earth does ancient history validate anything?  I guess the Germans were legitimate to invade Poland since Danzig and the Polish corridor were legitimately theirs?  No.  They were strong so they took it and used history and ethnicity as their political justification.  Incidentally nobody was particularly convinced by the justice of their cause.

But also there is a Chinese government in power in Taiwan so the claim it must belong to the Chinese because of history is not even particularly compelling from some sort of self-determination nationalist standpoint.  The issue is the claim that the PRC is the only legitimate government of every part of the world that ever belonged to a previous Chinese state.   I do not see why that is super just and proper.  But they make it so with their political clout.

I don't get it. Why would "The PRC has a claim on Taiwan that is more legitimate than a random bogus claim" mean more than just that?

[Camerus]

Why on earth does the victory of the CPP invalidate centuries of Chinese history and make China start at year 0 in 1949? 

Why on earth does ancient history validate anything?  I guess the Germans were legitimate to invade Poland since Danzig and the Polish corridor were legitimately theirs?  No.  They were strong so they took it and used history and ethnicity as their political justification.  Incidentally nobody was particularly convinced by the justice of their cause.

But also there is a Chinese government in power in Taiwan so the claim it must belong to the Chinese because of history is not even particularly compelling from some sort of self-determination nationalist standpoint.  The issue is the claim that the PRC is the only legitimate government of every part of the world that ever belonged to a previous Chinese state.   I do not see why that is super just and proper.  But they make it so with their political clout.

Because if history and culture mean nothing for determining the validity of states, then we're left with the simple calculus of might makes right.

But perhaps I am misunderstanding your position.  Is it that history or culture have zero bearing on the validity of claims?  And that China's claim on Taiwan is equally legitimate to its claim on Angola?  Or is it just that might makes right?  That China's claim on Taiwan is only valid because they have the potential ability to enforce it?  Or is it the belief in self-determination for all peoples?

I support the RoC's independence, but to claim that China has no legitimate reason to consider it a part of China strikes me as absurd.