Beslan school siege inspires Sri Lankan Defense Secretary

[Valmy]

What about those particular people who get killed to achieve your goal? They have no say in the matter? You don't suppose they want to live?

Sometimes bad things happen to good people.

[Berkut]

Again, I'm definitely not disagreeing with the statement.

I simply find it hilarious that anyone who can make this argument can also attempt to claim the moral high ground in ANY discussion about the value of human life if they can decide arbitrarily when the "incidental" destruction of the same is acceptable in reaching for a goal.

I think fewer people dying is better than lots of people dying.  That means I can never take the moral high ground?

What about those particular people who get killed to achieve your goal? They have no say in the matter? You don't suppose they want to live?

What about the particular people who get killed to achieve your goal of not killing anyone - the vastly greater number of people in fact? They ahve no say....etc., etc., etc.

This is lame. Why are you hashing out this 6th grade level moral philosophy?

[Slargos]

The callousness with which you describe actual human (well, in a fashion) lives and fates is funny. I will grant you that.

Still, I guess as long as you're on the correct side of the moral equation it's ok to be a cruel bastard.

But hey, at least you don't hate them, you simply don't care whether they live or die.

[Valmy]

The callousness with which you describe actual human (well, in a fashion) lives and fates is funny. I will grant you that.

Hey you are the dude condemning far more people to death by being in favor of needlessly lengthening wars.

Does context mean nothing to you?

[Neil]

But hey, at least you don't hate them, you simply don't care whether they live or die.

They are made out of atoms, which I can use for something else.

[Caliga]

IE Where exactly lies the difference in these two sentences?

"I think destroying the Tigers is well worth the sacrifice of some civilians.  It will, in the long run, save far more lives then may have to be sacrificed in the short term."

"I think destroying the Jews is well worth the sacrifice of some civilians. It will, in the long run, save far more lives then [sic] may have to be sacrificed in the short term."

A thread has officially Jumped the Shark(TM) when someone pulls out the Hitler comparisons.

[DontSayBanana]

Valmy misses the point: there is NO moral high ground to be obtained on this issue. Repeating, thugs versus state-sanctioned thugs.

[Berkut]

Valmy misses the point: there is NO moral high ground to be obtained on this issue. Repeating, thugs versus state-sanctioned thugs.

That analysis is dependent on some factual matters that are not really very apparent.

[DontSayBanana]

That analysis is dependent on some factual matters that are not really very apparent.

Not really. The Tamil Tigers have been successful thus far in exploiting the Tamil minority's grievances. The state's response? "We'll come to the table and address those grievances... once the Tigers are gone."

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/05/04/tigers-end-game-sri-lanka


Tigers End Game in Sri Lanka
by

James Ross
May 4, 2009

Published in the Huffington Post

The last stand of Sri Lanka's Tamil Tiger insurgents appears to be nearing its horrific end. Reduced to a sandy strip no bigger than New York's Central Park, the Tigers seem intent on fighting to the last man, woman and child. Disastrously, the Sri Lanka army has obliged the Tiger's death wish by indiscriminately firing heavy artillery into the strip, littering the area with bodies and body parts. The United Nations says that more than 6,400 civilians have been killed in the fighting since late January.

One might think that no one would shed a tear for the insurgents, officially known as the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. It was the first group to make suicide bombings their trademark. It assassinated numerous civilian officials and pro-peace politicians, and perhaps thousands of ethnic Tamils who didn't support their cause. In areas under their control, the Tamil Tigers ruled with an iron fist, torturing opponents, preventing a free press, and inducting thousands of children into their forces, often for front-line duty.

But support for the Tamil Tiger cause remains strong for many Tamils in Sri Lanka and among the large Tamil diaspora, most of whose families fled the country because of government abuses. Many get their information from Tiger propaganda sources. But the Tamil minority has genuine grievances against the Sinhalese-dominated government that have long gone unaddressed. While the LTTE was never the "sole representative" of Sri Lanka's Tamils, as the group has long claimed, it was often the only voice Tamils heard. And the grievances won't disappear just because the Tamil Tigers do.

Instead of addressing Tamil concerns about governance, property rights, and civil liberties, the administration of President Mahinda Rajapaksa has only heightened them, pandering to the most nationalistic Sinhalese elements in society. Several Tamil politicians and journalists have been murdered and others have been prosecuted on dubious political grounds. And while the threat of Tamil Tiger attack justifies security precautions, all too often they have meant that ordinary Tamils are subjected to indefinite detention without trial, "disappearances," and summary execution.

Even if the Tamil Tigers are defeated on the battlefield, few believe that their bombings and assassinations will end. It should be obvious to the Rajapaksa government that the way the war is fought - and concluded - will have a huge impact on the aftermath. Unfortunately, the government thus far has demonstrated little interest in promoting a genuine multi-ethnic Sri Lanka in which the rights of all its citizens are respected.

The United States, which has been outspoken on human rights in Sri Lanka since the Bush administration, should work with other influential governments, notably India, the European Union and Japan, to press for a long-term agenda that truly brings an end to the country's ethnic conflict.

First, Colombo needs to put its military commanders under tight control. The terrible civilian casualties of recent weeks are a huge cause for concern, but so is the danger that suspected LTTE fighters, many of whom were forcibly recruited, will be subject to serious abuses. After government forces took the rebel stronghold of Jaffna in 1995, some 500 people "disappeared." Were it to prosecute both government and LTTE commanders responsible for war crimes, the government would be making a crucial statement about justice in a future Sri Lanka.

Second, the government should stop treating all Tamils fleeing the war zone, including entire families, as captured combatants. They have been placed in so-called "welfare centers" - in reality, detention camps. Humanitarian agencies are obviously reluctant to provide assistance that will further the indefinite lock-up of these displaced civilians. While meeting legitimate security concerns, the government needs to allow freedom of movement of the displaced population, some 200,000 people, and plan for their prompt return to their homes.

Finally, the government should plan ahead for real democracy in former LTTE-controlled areas. After it "liberated" the eastern region a year ago, control of the area was effectively put in the hands of an abusive former Tamil Tiger force. Sri Lanka's Tamil population includes many well-educated people who have long criticized the LTTE for its murderous ways, and often paid the price in lost lives. They should be part of a new, democratic resurgence in former LTTE areas.

The current government is unlikely to take up these initiatives on its own. The United States and other concerned states have an important role to play in Sri Lanka's future. Otherwise the bloody fighting on the sandy strip will not be marking the end of the current war, but sowing the seeds of the next one.

[Berkut]

Yeah, but that is from HRW. So how do you even know if it is credible?

What we know for  certain is that the Tigers are an illegitimate terrorist organization. While that hardly gives teh government a free pass on supressing them, it does mean that the primary resposibility for civilian deaths is on them. If the government abuses that to inflict even greater casualties, or to intentionally kill civilians for their own purposes under the guise of the war, then they should be called to task on that, but not in the context of simply waving your hands and calling for a pox on both their houses.

[The Minsky Moment]

Then why the belly-aching when your enemies ram an Improvised Explosive Device into a building full of collateral?

What are you talking about?

Apparently some terrorist organization is targeting securitized loans for attack with explosives.  Talk about hitting something when it is down . . .

[The Minsky Moment]

But the Tamil minority has genuine grievances against the Sinhalese-dominated government that have long gone unaddressed. While the LTTE was never the "sole representative" of Sri Lanka's Tamils, as the group has long claimed, it was often the only voice Tamils heard. And the grievances won't disappear just because the Tamil Tigers do.

Instead of addressing Tamil concerns about governance, property rights, and civil liberties, the administration of President Mahinda Rajapaksa has only heightened them, pandering to the most nationalistic Sinhalese elements in society. Several Tamil politicians and journalists have been murdered and others have been prosecuted on dubious political grounds. And while the threat of Tamil Tiger attack justifies security precautions, all too often they have meant that ordinary Tamils are subjected to indefinite detention without trial, "disappearances," and summary execution.

But the German minority has genuine grievances against the Czech-dominated government that have long gone unaddressed. While the Nazis have never been the "sole representative" of Sudetenland's ethnic Germans, as the Party has long claimed, it is often the only voice Sudenten Germans hear. And the grievances won't disappear even if thethe Nazis do.

Instead of addressing Sudenten German concerns about governance, property rights, and civil liberties, the administration of President Benes has only heightened them, pandering to the most nationalistic Czech elements in society. Several Sudenten German politicians and students have been murdered and others have been prosecuted on dubious political grounds. And while the threat of Nazi attack justifies security precautions, all too often they have meant that ordinary Sudenten Germans are subjected to indefinite detention without trial, "disappearances," and police killings.

[jimmy olsen]

So your solution is what Joan, ethnically cleanse the island like the Czechs did the Sudetenland?

[DontSayBanana]

Yeah, but that is from HRW. So how do you even know if it is credible?

What we know for  certain is that the Tigers are an illegitimate terrorist organization. While that hardly gives teh government a free pass on supressing them, it does mean that the primary resposibility for civilian deaths is on them. If the government abuses that to inflict even greater casualties, or to intentionally kill civilians for their own purposes under the guise of the war, then they should be called to task on that, but not in the context of simply waving your hands and calling for a pox on both their houses.

Actually, you've done a wonderful job of leading into my point. With the press blacked out, there's no credible way to get an idea of whether the LTTE or the Sri Lankan government is bullshitting more (although the government's scale and reasoning of the media blackout is automatically suspect).

It's a wash. The Tigers are saying Sri Lanka isn't differentiating between civilians and combatants, while the government says the Tigers are using them as human shields, but refuses to provide any proof to back up their claims and won't allow anyone to review their methods. They're both being shady and underhanded; both have legitimate grievances with each other... there's just no way to take a side without sacrificing one's objectivity.

[Valmy]

So your solution is what Joan, ethnically cleanse the island like the Czechs did the Sudetenland?

I think the solution is probably not launching a decades long terrorist campaign though.  Call me crazy.