Beslan school siege inspires Sri Lankan Defense Secretary

Started by jimmy olsen, April 22, 2009, 01:02:39 PM

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Valmy

#75
May 12, 2009, 05:07:06 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
It's a wash. The Tigers are saying Sri Lanka isn't differentiating between civilians and combatants, while the government says the Tigers are using them as human shields, but refuses to provide any proof to back up their claims and won't allow anyone to review their methods. They're both being shady and underhanded; both have legitimate grievances with each other... there's just no way to take a side without sacrificing one's objectivity.

The Sri Lankan government is recognized universally by every world government as the lawful government of Sri Lanka.  I fail to see how the Tigers have just as much legitimacy.  Somehow I fail to see how it is a wash.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

DontSayBanana

#76
May 12, 2009, 05:10:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 12, 2009, 05:07:06 PM
The Sri Lankan government is recognized universally by every world government as the lawful government of Sri Lanka.  I fail to see how the Tigers have just as much legitimacy.  Somehow I fail to see how it is a wash.

It's not Sri Lanka's sovereignty that's in question; it's their methods. The international community HAS called those into question, and have so far received no coherent response.
Experience bij!

Valmy

#77
May 12, 2009, 05:13:52 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 05:10:37 PM
It's not Sri Lanka's sovereignty that's in question; it's their methods. The international community HAS called those into question, and have so far received no coherent response.

Interesting this is brought up right when the Tigers are in danger of being defeated.  It just strikes me as people falling over backwards to support a terrorist militia right at the moment of their defeat.  If it was a real sympathy for the plight of the civilians why are the screws being tighened just now?  Smells fishy to me.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

DontSayBanana

#78
May 12, 2009, 05:27:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 12, 2009, 05:13:52 PM
Interesting this is brought up right when the Tigers are in danger of being defeated.  It just strikes me as people falling over backwards to support a terrorist militia right at the moment of their defeat.  If it was a real sympathy for the plight of the civilians why are the screws being tighened just now?  Smells fishy to me.
The one thing we DO know for sure is that Sri Lanka's government upped the force at the end of 2008, and it was around that point that Sri Lanka started kicking journalists out. THAT smells fishy to me. I would think that we wouldn't want another Kosovo on our hands, and yet that seems a real possibility.
Experience bij!

Razgovory

#79
May 12, 2009, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 12, 2009, 04:26:01 PM
So your solution is what Joan, ethnically cleanse the island like the Czechs did the Sudetenland?

Well there were disadvantages to that.  For instance, Han's family came to America.  He would have made a wonderful commissar.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#80
May 12, 2009, 05:29:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 12, 2009, 03:33:43 PM
Yeah, but that is from HRW. So how do you even know if it is credible?

What we know for  certain is that the Tigers are an illegitimate terrorist organization. While that hardly gives teh government a free pass on supressing them, it does mean that the primary resposibility for civilian deaths is on them. If the government abuses that to inflict even greater casualties, or to intentionally kill civilians for their own purposes under the guise of the war, then they should be called to task on that, but not in the context of simply waving your hands and calling for a pox on both their houses.

What is a legitimate terrorist goranization.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#81
May 12, 2009, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 05:27:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 12, 2009, 05:13:52 PM
Interesting this is brought up right when the Tigers are in danger of being defeated.  It just strikes me as people falling over backwards to support a terrorist militia right at the moment of their defeat.  If it was a real sympathy for the plight of the civilians why are the screws being tighened just now?  Smells fishy to me.
The one thing we DO know for sure is that Sri Lanka's government upped the force at the end of 2008, and it was around that point that Sri Lanka started kicking journalists out. THAT smells fishy to me. I would think that we wouldn't want another Kosovo on our hands, and yet that seems a real possibility.

Well at least they are on an island.  They chances of mass migration is much lower.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

DontSayBanana

#82
May 12, 2009, 05:36:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 12, 2009, 05:31:25 PM
Well at least they are on an island.  They chances of mass migration is much lower.

Yeah. So they could pull off what Milosevic couldn't. <_<
Experience bij!

citizen k

#83
May 12, 2009, 05:46:36 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 05:36:13 PM

Yeah. So they could pull off what Milosevic couldn't. <_<

It would be more akin to Rwanda.

DontSayBanana

#84
May 12, 2009, 05:52:45 PM
Quote from: citizen k on May 12, 2009, 05:46:36 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 05:36:13 PM

Yeah. So they could pull off what Milosevic couldn't. <_<

It would be more akin to Rwanda.



Fair enough. In the ideological split, it would be closer to Kosovo, but in methodology, it'd be closer to Rwanda, yeah.
Experience bij!

Razgovory

#85
May 12, 2009, 05:56:54 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 05:52:45 PM


Fair enough. In the ideological split, it would be closer to Kosovo, but in methodology, it'd be closer to Rwanda, yeah.

And who cried over that?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

DontSayBanana

#86
May 12, 2009, 06:24:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 12, 2009, 05:56:54 PM
And who cried over that?

:blink: Rwanda is pretty widely showcased as a failure of the international community and NATO in general and UNAMIR in particular.
Experience bij!

Razgovory

#87
May 12, 2009, 06:36:51 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 06:24:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 12, 2009, 05:56:54 PM
And who cried over that?

:blink: Rwanda is pretty widely showcased as a failure of the international community and NATO in general and UNAMIR in particular.

NATO?  What Rwanda showcased was the complete disinterest in subject.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Berkut

#88
May 12, 2009, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 12, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 12, 2009, 03:33:43 PM
Yeah, but that is from HRW. So how do you even know if it is credible?

What we know for  certain is that the Tigers are an illegitimate terrorist organization. While that hardly gives teh government a free pass on supressing them, it does mean that the primary resposibility for civilian deaths is on them. If the government abuses that to inflict even greater casualties, or to intentionally kill civilians for their own purposes under the guise of the war, then they should be called to task on that, but not in the context of simply waving your hands and calling for a pox on both their houses.

Actually, you've done a wonderful job of leading into my point. With the press blacked out, there's no credible way to get an idea of whether the LTTE or the Sri Lankan government is bullshitting more (although the government's scale and reasoning of the media blackout is automatically suspect).

It's a wash. The Tigers are saying Sri Lanka isn't differentiating between civilians and combatants, while the government says the Tigers are using them as human shields, but refuses to provide any proof to back up their claims and won't allow anyone to review their methods. They're both being shady and underhanded; both have legitimate grievances with each other... there's just no way to take a side without sacrificing one's objectivity.

Proof?

The proof that the Tigers are using civilians as human shields is indisputable - if they were not, there would not even be any more fighting - in fact, it isn't even disputed.

The Tigers have no "legitimate grievance" - they cannot, because they are not a legititamate actor. If anyone has a legit grievance with the government, it is the people who the government is not taking reasonable and prudent care to not kill, if in fact that is happening (which seems likely). The Tamil Tigers have no standing whatsoever.

You do not have to lose any objectivity to see this - indeed, it would take a impressive LACK of objectivity to conclude that they both have "legitimate grievances" against the other.
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DontSayBanana

#89
May 12, 2009, 09:25:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 12, 2009, 09:09:03 PM
Proof?

The proof that the Tigers are using civilians as human shields is indisputable - if they were not, there would not even be any more fighting - in fact, it isn't even disputed.

The Tigers have no "legitimate grievance" - they cannot, because they are not a legititamate actor. If anyone has a legit grievance with the government, it is the people who the government is not taking reasonable and prudent care to not kill, if in fact that is happening (which seems likely). The Tamil Tigers have no standing whatsoever.

You do not have to lose any objectivity to see this - indeed, it would take a impressive LACK of objectivity to conclude that they both have "legitimate grievances" against the other.
You've got me on one point: I should have said the Tamils have grievances which the Sri Lankans are refusing to address, since they seem to think they can hold the Tigers over the Tamils' heads as collateral against fixing issues that they should have corrected long ago. The Tigers have been exploiting that; simply addressing the Tamils' grievances would remove a lot of the populist support that have kept the LTTE effective for so long.

You also haven't come up with any support for your "seems likely;" in fact, as Sri Lanka has ejected all diplomats, press, AND humanitarian workers from third party nations because of a "hidden pro-Tiger agenda," it "seems likely" that they're batshit insane and will see the LTTE where it's not present, and so it's reasonable to suspect that they are treating Tamil civilians as Tigers until proven otherwise.
Experience bij!
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