Glantz, or the reliability of Stalin-era Soviet reports on the Eastern Front

[grumbler]

Yeah but to what extent was their lack of morale and will to fight contributed by the way the Army was led?  The fact his plan resulted in the French Army sitting around doing nothing for months let the doubts begin to build and nerves to give out.  I see no reason why similar leadership in the First World War would not have had similar results.

Gamelin and his officers expected a repeat of the First World War, which is why they were so reluctant to attack until they had created a large superiority in force.  They didn't know how weak the Germans opposite them were.

[Ideologue]

I know in HoI3 those baguette-eating bastards aren't afraid to march into the Saar.

[The Brain]

Wochenschau = gospel. Period.

[Razgovory]

The Germans had a reputation for record keeping, but the Nazis were notoriously slap dash in administration.

That might lead me to question certain SS or Gestapo records, but at least until late in the war not the Wehrmacht generally.

Would you expect the same from Red Army records?

[11B4V]

The Germans had a reputation for record keeping, but the Nazis were notoriously slap dash in administration.

That might lead me to question certain SS or Gestapo records, but at least until late in the war not the Wehrmacht generally.

Would you expect the same from Red Army records?

From the same guys who brought you the Kursk Myth, That Operation Mars was just a side show, We didnt execute any Polish military,............ Naw they must be spot on.

But, I'll thumb through my copy of the Soviet General Staff Study on Kursk along with others and get back to you. It "was" classified, so it should be spot on...right.

[grumbler]

From the same guys who brought you the Kursk Myth, That Operation Mars was just a side show, We didnt execute any Polish military,............ Naw they must be spot on.

But, I'll thumb through my copy of the Soviet General Staff Study on Kursk along with others and get back to you. It "was" classified, so it should be spot on...right.

There is a difference between records and histories.  But, I would agree that even Red Army records from the early should be viewed suspiciously, because they were not kept continuously due to the turmoil at the front (and may have been "reconstructed" later in some cases), and because of the strong political controls placed on Red Army commanders in that time period.  The German Army never had anything like the commissar system, and the commissars would see all Red Army reports before they were submitted.

[Berkut]

From the same guys who brought you the Kursk Myth, That Operation Mars was just a side show, We didnt execute any Polish military,............ Naw they must be spot on.

But, I'll thumb through my copy of the Soviet General Staff Study on Kursk along with others and get back to you. It "was" classified, so it should be spot on...right.

There is a difference between records and histories.  But, I would agree that even Red Army records from the early should be viewed suspiciously, because they were not kept continuously due to the turmoil at the front (and may have been "reconstructed" later in some cases), and because of the strong political controls placed on Red Army commanders in that time period.  The German Army never had anything like the commissar system, and the commissars would see all Red Army reports before they were submitted.

Nazi fanboy alert! Nazi fanboy alert!

[Berkut]

One of the points that Glantz makes that I think is applicable is the lack of education in the Soviet military (expecially after the purges eviscerated the middle managment of the Red Army and Air Force). He cites a specific example - very few lower level officers could use a slide rule, hence could not do the calculations necessary to employ indirect fire artillery. So the artillery was cited to fire direct, which resulted in about a million pieces of Soviet artillery in German hands as they overran the positions.

I don't doubt that that same level of poor education impacted on the Red Army record keeping as well.

[DGuller]

Did Soviets never realize that you could just hit a Shift key?

[Valmy]

Did Soviets never realize that you could just hit a Shift key?

[The Minsky Moment]

Germany and Japan always made the best slide rules.

[11B4V]

The big brown truck just brought Valeriy Zamulin's book before I left for work today. From what I've gathered this 600 page tome deals with Vatutins AO and particularly the Prokhorovka area. Thumbing through it I have to say what a qaulity book. Gloss pages, good maps, lots of B&W photots, color terrain photos, etc.

[Zoupa]

France in 1940 wasn't France of 1914. For one, there was no Union Nationale government and society was bitterly divided between left and right, and anti-fascism and defeatism. Quite a few high-placed people both in civilian and military not only didn't want France to fight Germany, but to wish for a disaster to give an excuse to kick the Socialists out.

Well, they certainly got what they wished, didn't they?

Hence why these collaborated so thoroughly and willfully in Vichy France, and in part why France, when Petain arrived in power, was the only country invaded by Germany who actually officially gave up the fight.

France never gave up the fight. Petain and his quarteron de generaux en retraite might have.

France was in London.

[Valmy]

France never gave up the fight. Petain and his quarteron de generaux en retraite might have.

France was in London.

Still if Reynauld had not lost his nerve and Darlan had not been such a contemptible douche France might have continued the fight with the backing of its Empire.

[Habsburg]

France in 1940 wasn't France of 1914. For one, there was no Union Nationale government and society was bitterly divided between left and right, and anti-fascism and defeatism. Quite a few high-placed people both in civilian and military not only didn't want France to fight Germany, but to wish for a disaster to give an excuse to kick the Socialists out.

Well, they certainly got what they wished, didn't they?

Hence why these collaborated so thoroughly and willfully in Vichy France, and in part why France, when Petain arrived in power, was the only country invaded by Germany who actually officially gave up the fight.

France never gave up the fight. Petain and his quarteron de generaux en retraite might have.

France was in London.