GOP debate

[Ed Anger]

You fuckers fatigue me.

[Eddie Teach]

Obama (in the eye of the european)

Healthcare - he is off the far right of the spectrum. Europeans have actual single payer universal health care over the tax budget.

Gay Rights - centrist. Even European Conservatives are pro-gay rights. Gay marriage or military service is not considered controversial.

Drugs - he is far right. Drug prices are regulated and controlled.

Foreign Policy - center right, seeks to end the existing wars and make peace in palestine

etc.etc.

I think it's much more useful in judging the ideology of someone in a foreign country to look at the direction of movement in their policies rather than get hung up on their specific positions. For instance, Obama has said in the past he'd like to have a single payer system. He's not pushing it because it wouldn't get him anywhere.

[Razgovory]

It's willfull ignorance to pretend that the left in this country wasn't howling for Bush's head from day one over his "stolen election."

Until 9/11.  I don't remember the howling.  My impression was that the left generally started sneering and assumed that he'd be a one term President as, in the early days, it looked like he would.

It's willfull ignorance to pretend that the left didn't try to bludgeon Bush with Iraq and then stop caring after we had won.

Not true.  Iraq divided the left (and it's nonsense to suggest otherwise) most of the American left support Iraq if they grew increasingly dubious about Bush and Rumsfeld.  But I don't think you can say that crossed over into the mainstream until 2005-06.  There's a reason they nominated Kerry not Dean.

It's willfull ignorance to pretend that Gitmo was the most heinous crime known to man until Obama continued it.

The civil liberties left have legitimate grievances, they are not the left.

The biggest crime of the Bush administration was torture.

No, he did not.

No he didn't.  Congress did, led by John McCain in 2005 and Bush signed that law. 

Obama didn't stop detention, but there's a difference.  The issue of detention is real and difficult (I think Obama and Bush are probably wrong on it, but I'm not sure), torture's a civilised society whoring herself out to fear.

I think Yi mostly remembers mean things said about Bush on the Pdox OT.  Bush's approval rating was surprisingly high after he took office.  In other words many in the left gave him a chance.  Higher then say, the percentage of people who actually voted for him.

[Neil]

Until 9/11.  I don't remember the howling.

Really?  There was a lot of rancor over the election.

[Ideologue]

Yeah, that's how I remember it, even though at the time I was leaning toward Bush, I thought it was questionable and a lot of people were livid.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, that's how I remember it, even though at the time I was leaning toward Bush, I thought it was questionable and a lot of people were livid.

Some were, but you didn't have the Minority leader of the Senate say that his chief goal was to make Bush a one turn President.

[DGuller]

I think Yi mostly remembers mean things said about Bush on the Pdox OT.  Bush's approval rating was surprisingly high after he took office.  In other words many in the left gave him a chance.  Higher then say, the percentage of people who actually voted for him.

I don't recall that being the case.  I think that the way Bush got the presidency, by a Supreme Court vote, didn't bring any kind of closure to the election results.  It also didn't help that Bush seized the opportunity anyway, despite his questionable legitimacy, to push through the hard right agenda.  It wasn't until 9/11 that Bush got the approval ratings from the Democrats.

[Eddie Teach]

It also didn't help that Bush seized the opportunity anyway, despite his questionable legitimacy, to push through the hard right agenda.

That was certainly the Democratic talking point of the time, but I don't remember his agenda being all that "hard right". He reduced the amount of stem cell research the government paid for and he lowered taxes. And he picked a former Senator from a swing state to his cabinet. Somehow these got spun into Bush being an ardent reactionary.

[Martinus]

I like how in the last debate people in the audience booed a gay solider.  Such nice chaps.

I would have booed him. Martiniusism should be stamped out.

That's not Martinusism. The soldier didn't use shitty metaphors or call for death and persecution of people he doesn't like. He did, however join the military and serve his country.

I don't think it's fair to call him a Martinusist.

Well, now that DADT is repealed (the only benefit of doing that is the massive aggro for conservatives), I can safely resolve my cognitive dissonance and consider all American soldiers to be murderers and college drop-outs. 

[Sheilbh]

Until 9/11.  I don't remember the howling.

Really?  There was a lot of rancor over the election.

My impression was that it died down after, about February.

As I say my impression was that Bush started with lower than average approval ratings and they declined pretty steadily through his first year until 9/11.  Once Jeffords switched and Bush started to look very beatable at that early stage the Democrats switched to a haughty sneer and conviction of victory.  It may have been different on 'the left' in general.

That all ended with 9/11 when he became a war President.

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah, that's how I remember it, even though at the time I was leaning toward Bush, I thought it was questionable and a lot of people were livid.

Some were, but you didn't have the Minority leader of the Senate say that his chief goal was to make Bush a one turn President.

No, it was just assumed that moron would be.

[Razgovory]

I think Yi mostly remembers mean things said about Bush on the Pdox OT.  Bush's approval rating was surprisingly high after he took office.  In other words many in the left gave him a chance.  Higher then say, the percentage of people who actually voted for him.

I don't recall that being the case.  I think that the way Bush got the presidency, by a Supreme Court vote, didn't bring any kind of closure to the election results.  It also didn't help that Bush seized the opportunity anyway, despite his questionable legitimacy, to push through the hard right agenda.  It wasn't until 9/11 that Bush got the approval ratings from the Democrats.

Remember, he did get bipartisan support on his tax cuts.

[sbr]

I like how in the last debate people in the audience booed a gay solider.  Such nice chaps.

I would have booed him. Martiniusism should be stamped out.

That's not Martinusism. The soldier didn't use shitty metaphors or call for death and persecution of people he doesn't like. He did, however join the military and serve his country.

I don't think it's fair to call him a Martinusist.

Well, now that DADT is repealed (the only benefit of doing that is the massive aggro for conservatives), I can safely resolve my cognitive dissonance and consider all American soldiers to be murderers and college drop-outs. 

So now that homos are allowed to serve openly you now think worse of them?

That seems about right.

[Fate]

I think Yi mostly remembers mean things said about Bush on the Pdox OT.  Bush's approval rating was surprisingly high after he took office.  In other words many in the left gave him a chance.  Higher then say, the percentage of people who actually voted for him.

I don't recall that being the case.  I think that the way Bush got the presidency, by a Supreme Court vote, didn't bring any kind of closure to the election results.  It also didn't help that Bush seized the opportunity anyway, despite his questionable legitimacy, to push through the hard right agenda.  It wasn't until 9/11 that Bush got the approval ratings from the Democrats.

Remember, he did get bipartisan support on his tax cuts.

Huh? I mean sure, if you want to narrowly define bipartisanism as he got 3 votes from red state Democrats. The Bush tax cuts passed with 50 votes in the Senate with Dick Cheney being a tie breaker. On top of that Bush couldn't get 60 votes to overcome a filibuster so the tax cuts had to be passed under reconciliation rules and thus expired in 10 years.

To me bipartisan support means the legislation gets a super majority in the Senate... i.e. the Patriot Act.

[AnchorClanker]

Cain upset in Florida straw poll is very interesting.  37+%.  Wow.  More than twice Perry and Romney.

Weird fluke?