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Most Overrated President

Started by Kleves, July 23, 2011, 03:45:12 PM

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Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most overrated of them all?

Jefferson
2 (3.9%)
TR
1 (2%)
FDR
9 (17.6%)
Truman
3 (5.9%)
JFK
10 (19.6%)
Reagan
20 (39.2%)
Bush I
0 (0%)
Clinton
2 (3.9%)
Other
4 (7.8%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Ideologue

Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Killin' cubans is always a good thing.

By that metric, JFK is the best president ever!

Quote from: TonitrusThe devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".

Yes.
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

Razgovory

Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".

Doesn't even put a dent in his legacy.  Compare him to Simon Bolivar who hated slavery, but did not resign.  It's the difference between a stable Democratic Republic and an unstable series of dictatorships.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

CountDeMoney

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 24, 2011, 10:17:59 AM
JFK's weakness is why the crisis even happened, JFK was notable for ignoring the advice of people who before he accepted their expertise without question.

After Laos and the Bay of Pigs, I wouldn't have listened to those fucksticks either.

garbon

Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".

I'm not sure what sense it makes evaluating historical actors if you are going to divorce them from their context.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Ideologue

Quote from: garbon on July 24, 2011, 03:03:58 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".

I'm not sure what sense it makes evaluating historical actors if you are going to divorce them from their context.

How is that divorcing them from their context?
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

Ed Anger

Quote from: Ideologue on July 24, 2011, 02:00:38 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 24, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Killin' cubans is always a good thing.

By that metric, JFK is the best president ever!



He didn't do it right.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Richard Hakluyt

I'm tempted to say Lincoln or Washington, both are very highly-rated presidents who have not been included in the poll. This immunity or sanctity is suspicious  :hmm:

OttoVonBismarck

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 24, 2011, 03:46:21 PM
I'm tempted to say Lincoln or Washington, both are very highly-rated presidents who have not been included in the poll. This immunity or sanctity is suspicious  :hmm:

As a mealy-mouthed Brit who hasn't had a decent political leader since Charles II I can understand this foolish comment, but as an American I tell you that I will put up with quite a lot but no way in hell I will stand for someone talking bad about George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. I sternly suggest you retract from this line of discussion lest you force me to defend the honor of my country in a duel.

grumbler

Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".
Hell, the devil's advocate view might be that "he had false teeth, and is thus immediately overrated."

Don't confuse devil's advocacy with actual rational argumentation.  Devil's advocacy is designed to provoke thought, but not to win arguments.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

#69
Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2011, 06:11:44 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".
Hell, the devil's advocate view might be that "he had false teeth, and is thus immediately overrated."

Don't confuse devil's advocacy with actual rational argumentation.  Devil's advocacy is designed to provoke thought, but not to win arguments.

It's designed to test the validity of a case for Sainthood.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 24, 2011, 03:46:21 PM
I'm tempted to say Lincoln or Washington, both are very highly-rated presidents who have not been included in the poll. This immunity or sanctity is suspicious  :hmm:
The question is "over-rated" though, not "highly rated."  Merely being highly rated doesn't make one over-rated.

QuoteThe dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. The fiery trial through which we pass, will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We say we are for the Union. The world will not forget that we say this. We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free -- honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Tonitrus

Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2011, 06:11:44 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".
Hell, the devil's advocate view might be that "he had false teeth, and is thus immediately overrated."

Don't confuse devil's advocacy with actual rational argumentation.  Devil's advocacy is designed to provoke thought, but not to win arguments.

Did you just accuse me of inadvertantly making a rational argument?  :mad:

And per your quote from Lincoln, there is no doubt in my mind, that Lincoln wins the "Most Eloquent President" award.  And is certainly in the running for "Most Eloquent Human Being Ever".

Neil

Washington was a treasonous criminal, and thus not worthy of being considered 'great'.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Ideologue

Quote from: grumbler on July 24, 2011, 06:11:44 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 24, 2011, 01:55:03 PM
The devil's advocate view might be, though, that "he held slaves, and is thus immediately overrated".
Hell, the devil's advocate view might be that "he had false teeth, and is thus immediately overrated."

Don't confuse devil's advocacy with actual rational argumentation.  Devil's advocacy is designed to provoke thought, but not to win arguments.

The rational argument in this case appearing to be "everyone was doing it."
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Neil on July 24, 2011, 07:36:16 PM
Washington was a treasonous criminal, and thus not worthy of being considered 'great'.

Don't you have a Pierre Trudeau RealDoll(tm) you should be violating right now?