Taliban in Swat

[The Brain]

Also, Marty, of the democratic Islamic countries with the possible exception of Palestine, not one has ever elected a radical Islamist regime.  As I say, even in Pakistan, the Islamists have never managed to get even 20% of the vote.  So the dichotomy between democratically elected Islamists and unelected, Western supported dictatorships just isn't borne out, in any sense.  It's not based in fact.

Didn't Algeria elect one that got promptly couped?

Do you think having coups is compatible with being a democracy? Do try to keep up.

[Martinus]

Ok let's take a closer look at your lists, gents:

Albania - not a muslim country - according to wiki 60-75% of people declare themselves as "non-religious"
Bengladesh - Homosexuality penalised by life in prison
Bosnia - only exists thanks to UN troops, too early to tell
Indonesia - only recently emerged from dictatorship, has some non-dominant but strong sharia muslim parties, will see
Kosovo - you must be joking, it's a rogue/mafia state
Lebanon - not a strictly muslim state, as Islam is not truly dominant with Christianity being quite strong; the government is based on the confessional system with each religion being given some positions
Malaysia - In five states, apostasy from islam is a criminal offense. Nigga, please.
Mali - Ok!
Senegal - Homosexuality penalised up to life in prison
Turkey - already addressed
Tanzania - equal number of Christians and Moslems - not a Muslim country
Ghana - errr bitch, 60% Christian, 16% Muslim - what are you smoking? What's next? France as a succesful muslim democracy?
Palestine - NOT a country AND has sharia

So, Kevin, my dear boy, learn what you are talking about before talking with adults.

[Sheilbh]

And Turkey receives both Western support and until recently hasn't been a democracy, but a military dictatorship with a semi-democratic process. Once allowed the total freedom of choice, the people have elected... wait for it... islamists!

Yes but when you say Islamists I assume you don't mean the sort that are more rapidly supporting EU human rights law than any previous government and that have liberalised laws regarding women.  Because I think for you to say that by 'Islamist' you mean the AK Party would be disingenuous.

Also where's the line between 'supported' by the West and 'propped up' by the West?

Last time I checked Nigeria was applying sharia law in the muslim part of it.

I think most Muslim states in Nigeria have, however they've also generally hugely modified the sense in which they understand sharia due to the unpopularity - in many states - of the original version.  I remember reading an article on how, in a democracy, sharia law as practised in Nigeria had moved from a very hardline vision and how the theory was being developed here in ways that it wasn't in Saudi or Iran.  As ever, in Islam, only Muslims must live according to sharia - non-Muslims have a secular legal system.

[Martinus]

And Now for Sheilbh's list:

Indonesia - Done
Bangladesh - Done
Senegal - Done
Turkey - Done
Mali - Done
Mauritania - Probably not the one you were thinking - it has slavery, sharia, death penalty for homosexuality and apostasy
Kosovo - Done
Bosnia - Done
Lebanon - Done
Malaysia - Done
Nigeria - Muslim parts ruled by sharia (I believe there were stories of some stonings), death penalty for homosexuality and apostasy
Tanzania - One third muslims, one third Christians - not really a muslim country

[Sheilbh]

Didn't Algeria elect one that got promptly couped?

Yep.  You're quite right, I forgot all about that.  But my central point has always been that the radical, nihilist, violent form of Islamism is something that has overwhelming emerged from and been based in the Arab world.  I think that it's there rather than Islam that you should look and what's dangerous isn't Islam per se - Senegal for example has a unique and really interesting form of Islam that's almost entire Sufi, similarly there are incredible heterodoxies all over South Asia and Indonesia, East and West Africa - what's worrying is the Arabisation, and Saudi Arabisation, of Islam in other parts of the world. 

[Martinus]

I think most Muslim states in Nigeria have, however they've also generally hugely modified the sense in which they understand sharia due to the unpopularity - in many states - of the original version.  I remember reading an article on how, in a democracy, sharia law as practised in Nigeria had moved from a very hardline vision and how the theory was being developed here in ways that it wasn't in Saudi or Iran.  As ever, in Islam, only Muslims must live according to sharia - non-Muslims have a secular legal system.

It's death penalty for homosexuality and apostasy there. But continue scrapping at the bottom of the barrel, dear.

[Valmy]

I think this is like the third time when discussing Africa on Languish that Shielbh has tried to use Mauritania, one of the most brutally repressive countries in the world, as a shining example of Democracy.  The words Mauritania and Mali do not even look the same Shielbh...besides both starting with ma-.

[Martinus]

Didn't Algeria elect one that got promptly couped?

Yep.  You're quite right, I forgot all about that.  But my central point has always been that the radical, nihilist, violent form of Islamism is something that has overwhelming emerged from and been based in the Arab world.  I think that it's there rather than Islam that you should look and what's dangerous isn't Islam per se - Senegal for example has a unique and really interesting form of Islam that's almost entire Sufi, similarly there are incredible heterodoxies all over South Asia and Indonesia, East and West Africa - what's worrying is the Arabisation, and Saudi Arabisation, of Islam in other parts of the world.

Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia is ruled by "nihilist, violent" form of Islam. They are perfectly happy stoning their own rape victims, and pushing gays off high buildings, without having to institute a global Caliphate.

[Neil]

Jailing homosexuals is not inherently anti-democratic.  The democratic countries of the West would jail homosexuals until fairly recently.

[Martinus]

I think this is like the third time when discussing Africa on Languish that Shielbh has tried to use Mauritania, one of the most brutally repressive countries in the world, as a shining example of Democracy.  The words Mauritania and Mali do not even look the same Shielbh...besides both starting with ma-.

LOL yeah, I mean Saudi Arabia and Iran may be awful, but they both pale compared to Mauretania - it is a country that still has hereditary slavery, with slaves trying to escape or even being disobedient being subjected to most brutal punishments from their masters, who are free to kill them at will.

[Martinus]

Jailing homosexuals is not inherently anti-democratic.  The democratic countries of the West would jail homosexuals until fairly recently.

I am using harsh penalties for homosexuality as an example of these countries being islamist (religious fundamentalist) rather than anti-democratic. My point exactly is that moslems, when given a democracy, choose oppressive religious fundamentalism as their legal choice de jour.

[Valmy]

Anyway I have always been fond of Mali, though it is one of the poorest countries in the world.  As I stated its president is one of my heroes.  It is proof that extreme poverty, ethnic tensions, colonialism, and Islam are not the huge obstacles to a secular Democracy people claim they are.

[Ed Anger]

LOL yeah, I mean Saudi Arabia and Iran may be awful, but they both pale compared to Mauretania - it is a country that still has hereditary slavery, with slaves trying to escape or even being disobedient being subjected to most brutal punishments from their masters, who are free to kill them at will.

Mew! I must tell honeykitten the delightful news of this forward thinking country! Mah heart is all a flutter at thinking of moving to this country and away from the damnyankees invading my beloved south. SQUEE!

[Valmy]

Mew! I must tell honeykitten the delightful news of this forward thinking country! Mah heart is all a flutter at thinking of moving to this country and away from the damnyankees invading my beloved south. SQUEE!

[Sheilbh]

Dismissing Indonesia is like saying 'East Germany has some non-dominant but staunch Communist parties, too soon to tell' in 2001.  We're over a decade from Suharto's resignation and every election the extreme Islamists have lost their vote and have moderated their platform.

I would also warn against judging Muslim societies solely on their attitudes to homosexuality.  I think most countries at a similar level of development, regardless of religion have similar views and legal systems.  India for example, or at least half of sub-Saharan Africa.